From: Digestifier To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Date: Sat, 1 Oct 94 13:13:16 EDT Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #858 Linux-Misc Digest #858, Volume #2 Sat, 1 Oct 94 13:13:16 EDT Contents: Compiling a SLIP FAQ List (Josh Wilmes) Re: New Linux Distribution (Rene COUGNENC) Re: SCO WordPerfect: does it run on Linux? (Mark A. Davis) Re: How Old Is Linus? (Stig A. Olsen) Re: Linux goes commercial (Mark 'Enry' Komarinski) Re: LINUX pronounciation. (H. Peter Anvin) Re: Hmmm (Corey Brenner) Re: New Linux Distribution (Mark 'Enry' Komarinski) Need help (Lin Jyun-Naih) Re: tcpdump [short q] (mgb) Re: How can I rank video cards for Linux? (Jiann-Ming Su) Re: Copyright and licensing - a plea to software authors (Jeff Kesselman) Re: Maple V for Linux (Robert Ashcroft) Re: P5-90 MHz beats SGI R4000-100MHz. (Jiann-Ming Su) 128-256 symbols on my screen - HOW TO?! (Sam Steingold) Re: Telnet & ftp freeze! (Trevor Lampre) Re: New Linux Distribution (Leonard101) SCO COFF lib -> Linux (Oz Dror) Linux chosen in Thailand (Gary Paul Gortmaker) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wilmesj@vccsouth25.its.rpi.edu (Josh Wilmes) Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.admin,comp.os.linux.help Subject: Compiling a SLIP FAQ List Date: 29 Sep 1994 03:05:20 GMT I am willing to begin compiling a SLIP/PPP FAQ. I would appreciate it if people could send me any of their dip scripts or insight. I have had a fair amount of experience in getting SLIP up and running with my Linux box and the campus network, and personally found the lack of information somewhat frustrating. It is for that reason that I am volunteering to do this. Thanks for any contributions! --jw ------------------------------ From: rene@renux.frmug.fr.net (Rene COUGNENC) Subject: Re: New Linux Distribution Date: 28 Sep 1994 23:24:00 GMT Reply-To: cougnenc@hsc.fr.net (Rene COUGNENC) Ce brave Juana Moreno ecrit: > I have been thinking of putting up a new Linux distribution especially > oriented to DOS-Win dummies. (...) > > My distribution, tentatively called "WIn-dos Transition" (WIT), would have > the following features: [(mis)features deleted] Please don't do that. They won't understand what Unix is with such a system; and find their actual Windows or OS/2 setup much more powerful. I hope your article is just a joke :-) (In this case, next time don't forget to add ByWATER Basic to your list...) -- linux linux linux linux -[ cougnenc@renux.frmug.fr.net ]- linux linux linux ------------------------------ From: mark@taylor.infi.net (Mark A. Davis) Subject: Re: SCO WordPerfect: does it run on Linux? Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 03:05:43 GMT mjf@clark.net (Marc Fraioli) writes: >In article 4915@taylor.infi.net, mark@taylor.infi.net (Mark A. Davis) writes: >>mjf@clark.net (Marc Fraioli) writes: >> >>>In article 24574@taylor.infi.net, mark@taylor.infi.net (Mark A. Davis) writes: >>>>The text version flies at an incredible speed. The Xwindows version will >>>>be similar to the Sun version. WordPerfect 5.1 was WordPerfect's first >>>>attempt at X software, it is rather large and slow.... but usable. >> >>>I have WordPerfect 5.0 for X/Ultrix at work. It is ghastly. Quite >>>probably the worst written piece of software I have ever seen. >> >>5.0 does not include an X version at all. Which means you are using the >>text version. I do not understand your reaction at all. We have been using >>WordPerfect for Unix since version 4.2. And the text version is very fast, >>functional, mostly bug free, and very stable. The only major problems >>I have seen with WordPerfect for Unix revolve around the 5.1 X version; >>which I imagine most will be fixed in the 6.0 X version. >> >Nope, 5.0 does have an X version. I have seen it on SunOS, and use it >nearly every day on Ultrix. Hmm, I was told that 5.1 was the first X version.... perhaps they meant the first X version for SCO. Maybe an earlier, slower, buggier version was available for other platforms. > Due to my constant exposure to it and great >hatred for it, I am afraid you will be unable to convince me of its Not sure why you would HATE it.... >non-existence (although I wish it were so). 5.1-X is not too bad, but >it is not available for Ultrix, which is what I have on my desk at work. Time to change OS's? Maybe you could run the newer version remotely.... or, if for some reason you hate WP, not just the DEC 5.0 version, then use something else.... $$$$ Framemaker, Island Write, On-Go, Applixware... And all the above have SCO versions which should also run under Linux IBCS!!! -- /--------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | Mark A. Davis | Lake Taylor Hospital | Norfolk,VA (804)-461-5001x431 | | Director/SysAdmin | Information Systems | mark@taylor.infi.net | \--------------------------------------------------------------------------/ ------------------------------ From: stigo@ifi.uio.no (Stig A. Olsen) Subject: Re: How Old Is Linus? Date: 1 Oct 1994 14:42:51 +0100 In article <36hq45$npg@Ra.MsState.Edu>, js1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Jiann-Ming Su) writes: > In article <367dkb$ai9@sashimi.wwa.com>, > Terence S. Murphy wrote: > >sure it will happen if Linux if still around for a couple of more years. > >-- > > Why would Linux go away? SCO, Novell, Microsoft, IBM, SunSoft and a couple of others is out to get him! :-) -- -- Stig A. Olsen -- -- stigo@ifi.uio.no -- -- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~stigo -- ------------------------------ From: komarimf@craft.camp.clarkson.edu (Mark 'Enry' Komarinski) Subject: Re: Linux goes commercial Date: 29 Sep 1994 03:10:55 GMT Al Longyear (longyear@netcom.com) wrote: : c-clark@freenet2.scri.fsu.edu (Champ Clark) writes: ::[...] : Then tell him to buy it and use it. It seems that this is one of the : major complaints from the 'business' people that "since it did not : cost me anything then it can't be good." You should be happy with your : boss' misconception. My boss was thrilled when I told him I had a free UNIX with a C compiler. Given that we shelled out I-don't-know-how-much for a lousy copy of UNIXware (which was a pain to admin and didn't have a C compiler). He was also thrilled with the fact that after screwing around with UNIXware about 2 days (16 hrs) that I could install from scratch a Linux machine and get httpd working in 6 hours. : p.s.: There is an old saying "the customer is always right". In business, : there is another old saying "the boss is always right." DON'T ARGUE. And : don't point out the mistake. It really doesn't matter. If you know enough about it to administer it safely, you could convince yr boss that it is easy to set up and administer, especially for 'minor' tasks (such as a WWW server). 'Free and easy' go far in a business world at times. (No, I don't work or speak for Clarkson) -- - Mark Komarinski - komarimf@craft.camp.clarkson.edu Linux: Because a PC is a terrible thing to waste. Check out comp.os.linux for more info. ------------------------------ From: hpa@ahab.eecs.nwu.edu (H. Peter Anvin) Subject: Re: LINUX pronounciation. Reply-To: hpa@nwu.edu (H. Peter Anvin) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 14:19:02 GMT Followup to: <36ik63$hln@Tut.MsState.Edu> By author: simmons@EE.MsState.Edu In newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc > > In article <1994Sep30.152247.1@corning.com>, > whiting_ms@corning.com (Matt Whiting) wrote: > >-- > > > >Stupid question: how is LINUX pronounced? I've heard pronounced so that it > >sounds like the "lin" in linen and so that it sounds like the "lin" in line. > > > > Check out http://www.gtlug.org/lpd/lpd.html for the official > Linux Pronounciation Database. > Or FTP a sound file from Linus himself from: ftp.funet.fi:/pub/OS/Linux/PEOPLE/Linus/SillySounds /hpa -- INTERNET: hpa@nwu.edu --- Allah'u'abha --- IBM MAIL: I0050052 at IBMMAIL HAM RADIO: N9ITP or SM4TKN FIDONET: 1:115/511 or 1:115/512 STORMNET: 181:294/1 or 181:294/101 "Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts." -- urlichs@smurf.sub.org ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: alt.fan.linus-torvalds From: brennerc@rocket.cc.umr.edu (Corey Brenner) Subject: Re: Hmmm Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 22:01:09 GMT Bjorn Kihlberg (psybk@pew.psy.gu.se) wrote: : Chris (e8ne@amalthea.sun.csd.unb.ca) wrote: : : Jeez - I hadn't realized that Linus had such a loyal following ;) : : Chris : But of course! Not anyone would get the idea to start a new .NIX (*NUX?) and : manage to make it better than all the others combined! :) : -- : -------------------------------------------------------------------- : Bjorn Kihlberg | email: bk@psy.gu.se : (C) All Copyrighted | bjorn@trillium.se Hear, Hear! Linus *IS* God! (or at least my previously useless PC thinks so) Corey Brenner ------------------------------ From: komarimf@craft.camp.clarkson.edu (Mark 'Enry' Komarinski) Subject: Re: New Linux Distribution Date: 29 Sep 1994 03:26:19 GMT Juana Moreno (madrid@gandalf.rutgers.edu) wrote: :[...] : My distribution, tentatively called "WIn-dos Transition" (WIT), would have : the following features: : - Defaults to SINGLE USER mode. No need to show the complications : of multiuser accounts to newbies who will likely use it : personally. : - Only one shell: bash, with lots of aliases that match as closely : as possible the COMMAND.COM commands and the utilities in : the DOS directory. Maybe it won't be very difficult to : include a .BAT->.sh translator. : - Only enough utilities to match the functionality of the DOS : standard utilities plus the major unix winners like : grep, awk and sed. (But not vi or emacs!!!). : - NO NETWORKING, except for maybe a terminal program (minicom) and : a mostly configured SLIP (client side only). In that case, : maybe Mosaic should be also included. : -NO SCSI. Most home dos-win users don't even know what SCSI is. : -XFree 3.1 configured to use the VGA16 server (mono or color) with : a generic (low resolution) Xconfig. : - Utilities to match the standard Windows applets: : Winfile -> Xfm-1.3 : Progman -> Xfm-1.3 : Notepad -> Axe (?) : Write -> Ez : Terminal -> Minicom (Seyon?) : Mediaplay -> ????? : Dos windows -> Xterm,rxvt (of course !!!) : Whatelse??? : - Only one window manager: FVWM : - No developing tools. : - The binaries should fit (gzipped) in 10 1.44 floppies. IMO, you just took out most of what UNIX has over DOG/Windoze. UNIX in itself is not ready at all for a home market, and I doubt it ever will be. It's too .. well.. good. The other big stumbling blocks are: - Low X resolution/colors: Everyone in the DOG/Win world is used to 1024X768X256 (at least)..Noone would want to drop to 640X480X16 (or 2) - No Win compatability: if you're really serious about this, wait until Wine is mature enough (will it be?) to handle Windows programs. : Well, that's my idea. I'd like to hear comments before I start packaging : everything, because if you think this is useless I'd like to know before : I waste my time. All suggestions will be appreciated. -- - Mark Komarinski - komarimf@craft.camp.clarkson.edu Linux: Because a PC is a terrible thing to waste. Check out comp.os.linux for more info. ------------------------------ From: jnlin@netrd.net.tw (Lin Jyun-Naih) Subject: Need help Date: 29 Sep 1994 03:32:57 GMT Hi, I got gated-R3_5Alpha_7 and tried to make it, but it failed in parser.y Do I need to modify this file? (I use Linux system.) I also set yacc to bison in Config file. Your assistance is appreciated. J.N. Lin ============================================================================ cclin:/gated/gated-R3_5Alpha_7/src> make config util/config obj.Linux-1.0.9-i386/Config Parsing obj.Linux-1.0.9-i386/Config Directory: obj.Linux-1.0.9-i386 Building Makefile from Makefile.template make links depend make[1]: Entering directory `/gated/gated-R3_5Alpha_7/src/obj.Linux-1.0.9-i386' rm -f core core.gated gated checksum.o grand.o if.o inet.o krt.o krt_rtread_pro c.o krt_ifread_ioctl.o krt_rt_ioctl.o krt_lladdr_linux.o krt_symbols_proc.o krt _ipmulticast.o policy.o rt_aggregate.o rt_radix.o rt_redirect.o rt_static.o rt_ table.o sockaddr.o str.o targets.o task.o trace.o parse.o aspath.o asmatch.o bg p.o bgp_init.o bgp_rt.o bgp_sync.o egp.o egp_init.o egp_rt.o hello.o icmp.o osp f_build_dbsum.o ospf_build_ls.o ospf_choose_dr.o ospf_conf.o ospf_flood.o ospf_ init.o ospf_log.o ospf_lsdb.o ospf_newq.o ospf_rt.o ospf_rtab.o ospf_rxlinkup.o ospf_rxmon.o ospf_rxpkt.o ospf_spf.o ospf_spf_leaves.o ospf_states.o ospf_tqha ndle.o ospf_trace.o ospf_txpkt.o rip.o parser.o lexer.o version.o linterrs.gated rm -f gated.8 ospf_monitor.8 ripquery.8 gdc.8 inst-man rm -f signames.c rm -f y.tab.* y.output rm -f version.c version.ids version.ids.new rm -f core.ripquery ripquery ripquery.o checksum.o str.o standalone.o linterrs. ripquery rm -f core.ospf_monitor ospf_monitor ospf_monitor.o checksum.o str.o standalone ..o linterrs.ospf_monitor rm -f core.gdc gdc gdc.o str.o standalone.o linterrs.gdc rm -f libgated.a signames.o inet_aton.o IEFBR14.o rm -f lexer.c parser.c parser.h rm -f TAGS Configuring: parser make[1]: *** [parser.y] Error 139 <----- error here, can't parse make[1]: Leaving directory `/gated/gated-R3_5Alpha_7/src/obj.Linux-1.0.9-i386' cclin:/gated/gated-R3_5Alpha_7/src> ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help From: byrne_mike@mm.ssd.lmsc.lockheed.com (mgb) Subject: Re: tcpdump [short q] Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 00:13:13 GMT In article <940929110320.222040e4@CHIP.FNAL.GOV>, DABOUS@CHIP.FNAL.GOV wrote: > Hi All, > > What is the Linux command to do a "tcpdump"? I type tcpdump on > my linux box and it says command not found! > > Any idea? Thank you! > > - Kal Dabous > dabous@fnal.gov Sources are on sunsite. Results won't be very interesting unless you have a TCP/IP link up and running. ------------------------------ From: js1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Jiann-Ming Su) Subject: Re: How can I rank video cards for Linux? Date: 30 Sep 1994 14:27:46 -0500 In article , Larry Doolittle wrote: > >Most accelerators *are* supported by XFree now. Almost all will be >supported by the next release (3.1) coming out RSN. The notable exceptions >are some Diamond cards (proprietary clock chips), ATI Mach64, and Matrox. >I am not sure how the P9x00 driver is coming, I guess that one is still >chancy. 8514, S3, ATI, Cirrus, ET-4000/W32 all have at least some >acceleration supported by XFree, if not now, in the next release. > I thought it was just the Diamonds and Matrox that were not supported. I was under the impression that the ATI Mach64 is. In fact, our local linux user's group machine is using the Mach64. ------------------------------ From: jeffpk@netcom.com (Jeff Kesselman) Subject: Re: Copyright and licensing - a plea to software authors Date: Tue, 27 Sep 1994 02:20:29 GMT I'm not going to include the body of Mr. Tso's artcial because I don't want to waste the bandwidth, as its not really necessary to my point. Something you seem to be forgetting is that the concept of 'intent' carries alot of weight in teh courts. In the case of Jobs' files, the clear INTENT was that users link it with the GNU stuff. For this reason, it coudl be argued as falling within GNU's right to keep that from happening, as GNu liscneses its software for very specific uses. (Now whetehr they coudl sue Jobs, or whether they woudl have to after the people using his stuff, i don't know. I suspect however Jobs coudl be seen as 'inducing' the breach of contract, for whatever thats worth... thats just a feeling though, I'm not nearly well enough versed in law to make a statement to that effect.) In your dbm case, YOUR clear intenet is that it be linekd with dbm. thus YOU are not trying to get anyone to void their agreement with FSF. A very different case. Jeff kesselman ------------------------------ From: rna@leland.Stanford.EDU (Robert Ashcroft) Subject: Re: Maple V for Linux Date: 30 Sep 1994 04:35:42 GMT In article <36fqhs$hji@sulawesi.lerc.nasa.gov>, Ray Hann wrote: >In article <36ctcd$g5d@coranto.ucs.mun.ca> tony@engr.mun.ca writes: >>rossn@unbc.edu (Ross Niebergall) writes: >> >>I would imagine the higher price for maple is due to unix being a >>multi-user platform. Windows is for one person, however on a unix >>implementation of a program (unless it is otherwise restricted, and >>I dont think maple is) then that program is available to alot of >>people. > >Isn't windows for workgroups multi-user? I know NT is definitely multi-user. >I have been waiting for Maple for Linux, but I thought the port was >going to be the student version for around $100 US. I think the Linux >community is not going to be willing to shell out the $500+ or whatever >it is, since a lot of people who use Linux are on student budgets. I hope >there is a port of the student version for Linux, otherwise the folks at >Waterloo made a big goof. My guess is they can sell a lot more $100 >student versions for Linux, than they will sell of the full unix-like port. I think that characterization of the Linux community is incomplete. My dad will probably get a copy, and the fact that it exists makes it more likely that his department will move to Linux on fast Pentiums the next time they switch workstations. He oversees department computer resources for a major physical science department at a big research university. Budget crunches mean that Linux is already very attractive (cheap hardware, even cheaper software ;-) and the availability of such things as Maple makes Linux even more so. There may yet be a student version of Maple for Linux. The best way to ensure that is to write a polite letter to the company. A letter that simply says 1) You are happy to see that Maple has been ported to Linux 2) You look forward to the availability of a student version 3) You will buy said student version when it appears is all that is required. Linux propaganda and other like stuff is probably counterproductive---they've already realized the potential for Linux, we just have to get them to take one small baby step beyond that. RNA ------------------------------ From: js1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Jiann-Ming Su) Subject: Re: P5-90 MHz beats SGI R4000-100MHz. Date: 30 Sep 1994 14:33:19 -0500 In article <2966@nikhefh.nikhef.nl>, Andres Kruse wrote: >Oh yeah? What about SGIs superb graphics ? What about the fact that you >can put 256MB RAM in them (and it works! (have you ever seen a PC >with > 64MB?)) ? What about ECC checked memory ? What about a >200MB/sec bus ? >What if you want to develop code which runs then in parallel on SGI Challenges ? In fact, I have used a SGI Indigo 2 with Extreme graphics with 256MB of RAM and a 200MHz processor! Nice. . .Nice. Can't beat that huge 21" monitor, either, or was it 19"? Hmm. . . Wonder if you can put linux in that thing??? :) :) :) ------------------------------ From: shteingd@math.ucla.edu (Sam Steingold) Subject: 128-256 symbols on my screen - HOW TO?! Reply-To: shteingd@math.ucla.edu Date: 30 Sep 1994 18:57:18 GMT What can be done to tell Linux how to show the 8bit chars on the terminal? (cyrillic etc) It wasn't a problem with MS DOS! (Just like the shitty MS Windows configure themselves and the configuring of X is such a pain!) Sam Steingold | Dept. of Mathematics, UCLA, Los Angeles, CA 90024-1555 | e-mail: shteingd@math.ucla.edu I would appreciate comments on / corrections of my English from native English speakers. Thank You! ------------------------------ From: trevor@xanax.apana.org.au (Trevor Lampre) Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help Subject: Re: Telnet & ftp freeze! Date: 30 Sep 1994 08:20:13 +0930 In article <361m6q$2mt@ns.oar.net>, System Administrator wrote: >DABOUS@CHIP.FNAL.GOV wrote: >: Hello everyone, > >[ Text deleted] > >: Said that, I am having problems with telnet an MTU sizes. If I >: telnet/ftp to my Linux box from a remote site, I find my sessions _sometimes_ >: hang up. ifconfig shows that some packets have been dropped. Reading some >: documentation, I found out that this is a fragmentation problem that is >: being worked on in Net-2E. I choose mtu with different sizes, but I guess >: the best that can work for me is 576 (though this still breaks.) I am >: running v1.1.48 and using SLIP protocol. > >: The problem gets much worse and freeze much quicker if you telnet >: to your Linux machine, and then from your Linux machine you telnet/ftp to >: some other machine. > >: I've seen this problem being reported several times on Linux >: newsgroups, but no one had given an answer to it. I have programming >: experiecne and I would like to help in solving it. > >We have had a similar probem. We are running slip to our internet >provider, and intermittantly experience telnet lockups during logins. >The system either 1) refuses connections 2) accepts the connection, but >just sits 3) provides a login prompt, takes input, and never gives the >password prompt (ususally creating a login zombie in the process). > >This is our singularly most vexing problem. It has been present since >the first <1.0 kernel we used (now 1.1.45). > >Anyone else seeing such behaviour? > Many have. I have posted twice myself about it and seen at least 5 other posts not including this thread. I have never seen a response and my emails to other posters has never been answered. It's pissing me off that nobody seems to know the answer or have a fix. I've been patching my kernel up to 1.1.51 (I think it got worse at .51) as well as rebuilding my daemons. I read a few days ago that the next release of the networking code fixes a problem that sounds like this but I've seen no followups as to when it will be released. As the admin of a public access system it is of great concern to me, I've had sendmail die for about 2 days before I noticed as well as the other problems described. I spend more time now checking/killing/rebooting my network stuff than I do giving more value to my users. I might just switch to *BSD, at least the network code works. Trevor Lampre. ------------------------------ From: leonard101@aol.com (Leonard101) Subject: Re: New Linux Distribution Date: 30 Sep 1994 15:28:02 -0400 In article <1994Sep28.231146.24666@news.vanderbilt.edu>, setzerkl@vvcs (Kelly Lee Setzer) writes: ======snip, snip====== > A "quickie" distribution of this type would be great for > people wanting to see what Linux was all about. =====snip, snip======= Ahh... more likely what Linux is NOT all about. It is my opinion that the average DOG/Windoze user would perceive such a Linux distribution as a somewhat brain-dead version of what they are already using. -Len lbrabant@mdcs1.umassd.edu leonard101@aol.com ------------------------------ From: dror@netcom.com (Oz Dror) Subject: SCO COFF lib -> Linux Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 16:17:38 GMT I have some SCO 3.2.2 COFF libraries that I would like to use under Linux is there a way to convert these libraries to BSD, so I that can use them under linux. I remember a few years ago there was something like "rubotassin" that did the opposite. Any help will be appreciated. -Oz -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< NAME Oz Dror, Los Angeles, California SMAIL dror@netcom.com <> PHONE (213) 874-7978 Fax (213) 874-7965 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ From: gpg109@huxley.anu.edu.au (Gary Paul Gortmaker) Subject: Linux chosen in Thailand Date: 30 Sep 1994 17:44:29 +1000 In an article about a TCP/IP training course offered by Thailand's National Electronic and Computer Technology Centre (NECTEC) it said that the state owned university libraries will be getting Linux boxes from NECTEC. The original article was in the Bangkok post. (Good luck finding that at your local newsstand.) Now who said that Linux was just a hacker's toy? ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is: Internet: Linux-Misc-Request@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.misc) via: Internet: Linux-Misc@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites: nic.funet.fi pub/OS/Linux tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux End of Linux-Misc Digest ******************************