From: Digestifier To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Date: Fri, 7 Oct 94 13:13:25 EDT Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #895 Linux-Misc Digest #895, Volume #2 Fri, 7 Oct 94 13:13:25 EDT Contents: Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux? (Bill Willis) Re: P5-90 MHz beats SGI R4000-100MHz. (CVL staff member Nate Sammons) Re: Where is infomagic? (Mark A. Horton KA4YBR) Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux? (Miguel Alvarez Blanco) Does all SCO software run on Linux (C.W. Southern) PHONE for ACC Bookstore Anyone? (edg@tt740) Re: Nailed down to 386bsd or linux, now which one? (Raoul Golan) Re: Linux doesn't like my cache (David Flood) Re: where to get the texbook (Michael Rogero Brown (Sys Admin)) Re: X News-reader for LinuX (Jaime Jofre) Re: New Linux Distribution (Aaron K. Michalove) Re: Idek 8617 + ???? @ 1280x1024x(76-80)Hz (Andre M.A. van Leeuwen) Re: Idek 8617 + ???? @ 1280x1024x(76-80)Hz (Mary Shenk) DooM: Sound but no Music? (Raymond Kraft) Re: SW Technologies (Jonathan I. Kamens) Re: where to get the texbook (Mark A. Horton KA4YBR) Re: Linux mentioned in PC Week (Mark A. Horton KA4YBR) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: willis@bltop.ncsu.edu (Bill Willis) Crossposted-To: comp.unix.questions Subject: Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux? Date: 5 Oct 1994 03:53:04 GMT Reply-To: willis@bltop.ncsu.edu (Bill Willis) In article <1994Oct4.130724.10487@midway.uchicago.edu>, goer@quads.uchicago.edu (Richard L. Goerwitz) writes: |> |>Still, it is not as if style sheets can't be done using major word proces- |>sors. And I'm not sure that TeX is really the right thing to bring up for |>average users. It's just not a word processor in the sense that most of |>us use those words. Any system that separates editing from viewing just |>adds another gratuitous layer of indirection to the process of producing |>documents. |> Actually, almost every study I have ever seen shows that WYSIWYG significantly reduces the productivity of a person trying to get serious writing done. I believe that these were studies of documentation producers and that they found that users of WYSIWYG spend a lot of time formatting and reformatting to get visual appearance when they should be writing content. In other words, the process of wrting content then formatting is more productive that formatting as you go and WYSIWYG tends to lead people to format as they go. I guess that we are not talking letters and memos here, but reports, books, etc. and this makes a difference. But the bottom line is, no body has ever shown me anything that proves WYSIWYG makes for more productive writing... I also have to admit that I generally use WYSIWYG... -- Bill Willis ------------------------------ From: nate@seurat.VIS.ColoState.Edu (CVL staff member Nate Sammons) Subject: Re: P5-90 MHz beats SGI R4000-100MHz. Date: 4 Oct 1994 17:01:19 GMT I think some people are missing the point about SGIs. First, a little about myself. I run a lab of 7 SGIs and a linux box (more to come, probably). Linux is great for UNIX and X. SGIs, OTOH, have a *lot* of custom hardware for doing 3D calcs very fast. They havn't had a *really* fast CPU in the past (the R8000, of course, is different), but they have had very good SMP (in the challenge and onyx series) and extraordinary 3D graphics (look at the specs for a Reality Engine 2 sometime). So, this is somewhat like the "Mac vs. PC" crusades that are always going on. Each machine has it's strong points, and each is the "best solution" for some people. BTW, I would like to see a PC that beats an R8000 (110 SpecINT and 330 SpecFP at a measly 75 MHz... better than the new DEC which is 300 SpecINT and 500 SpecFP, but at 300 MHz), but that's another story. -nate -- Nate Sammons System Administrator - CSU Computer Visualization Laboratory ------------------------------ From: mah@ka4ybr.com (Mark A. Horton KA4YBR) Subject: Re: Where is infomagic? Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 20:01:23 GMT FORSEILLES STEPHAN (sforseil@vub.ac.be) wrote: : I tried to mail infomagic.com but it bounced... : Did they change their IP or did they just shut down theeir business? The move to Arizona has not been without its difficulties... chief of which is getting the T1 line installed by SouthWestern Bell! So communications has been difficult. Mail should have been forwarded, but there have been some problems there also. The phone numbers should be working now. Also, if you need to send mail, you may direct it to: infomagic@ka4ybr.atlanta.com or infomagic@ka4ybr.com or infomagic@ka4ybr.atl.ga.us And I'll call them directly with your questions and orders. We apologise for the delay. :( BUT! The next Linux Developers' Resource CD set is being pressed at this moment and should be shipping aroung Oct. 10! Thanks for your support, - Mark, Joel, Kim, Patty, and Fred -- "Linux! Guerrilla UNIX Development Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus." ============================================================ Mark A. Horton ka4ybr mah@ka4ybr.atlanta.com P.O. Box 747 Decatur GA US 30031-0747 mah@ka4ybr.atl.ga.us +1.404.371.0291 : 33 45 31 N / 084 16 59 W mah@ka4ybr.com ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.unix.questions Subject: Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux? From: miguel@carbono.quimica.uniovi.es (Miguel Alvarez Blanco) Date: 7 Oct 1994 12:12:06 GMT Richard L. Goerwitz (goer@quads.uchicago.edu) wrote: : naoumov@physics.unc.edu (Sergei Naoumov) writes: : Another point: TeX will give you low-level control over your document. : But frankly I don't give a damn. Once the referees, copy editors, lay- : out goons, and editors get their hands on my MS it's not going to look : like what I gave them, anyway. So who wants to twiddle kerning pairs? : Just bang the sucker out, I say, and don't be so anal-retentive. Really? This must be in your own field, because some journals of the APS, like Physical Review, accept LaTeX documents by e-mail (in source!) and use LaTeX in producing the final document. So I want to twiddle not only kerning pairs, but everything in my documents, because I know that the way I see them is the way the final reader will see them. BTW, the e-mail process is far faster than the usual method of submission; even if the only advantage of LaTeX were this, I'll take it over that myriad of brain dead 'clicky' Windows word processors. Another important thing: I'm by no means a typist, nor want to be one. Why on earth should I care of the intrincate problems of document typesetting when a program can do it for me? I won't claim that LaTeX is a good multilingual processor, but my master thesis was written on it, in spanish, without troubles. Sure, Hebrew, Kanji and lots of other languages are not there, but at least it's a step forward. BTW, I use vi as the editor for my LaTeX documents, so I'm probably brain dead myself :-) Cheers, Miguel Miguel Alvarez Blanco | "All that is gold does not glitter, miguel@hobbit.quimica.uniovi.es | not all those who wander are lost." miguel@carbono.quimica.uniovi.es | Bilbo Baggins. ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help From: cws9669@ultb.isc.rit.edu (C.W. Southern) Subject: Does all SCO software run on Linux Reply-To: cws9669@ultb.rit.edu () Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 22:31:30 GMT With the proper drivers install into the kernel, does most of SCO's software run on a Linux box. I hear all the time of Wordperfect running what about other software for SCO. chris. -- Chris Southern RIT Computer Science E-mail: cws9669@ultb.rit.edu WWW: http://ultb.rit.edu/~cws9669 ------------------------------ From: edg@tt740 Subject: PHONE for ACC Bookstore Anyone? Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 18:46:00 GMT Does anyone have the phone for ACC Bookstore? They are Linux CD/book disktributors. ^^^^^^ Ed Gonzalez edg@comm.mot.com ------------------------------ From: raoul@cssc-syd.tansu.com.au (Raoul Golan) Crossposted-To: comp.os.386bsd.misc Subject: Re: Nailed down to 386bsd or linux, now which one? Date: 7 Oct 1994 15:34:03 +1000 nate@bsd.coe.montana.edu (Nate Williams) writes: >In article <36djkn$nm8@girtab.usc.edu>, Po-Han Lin wrote: >>386bsd is monolithic (controlled I guess), while linux is non-monolithic. >You were misinformed. Both Linux and the BSD's use monolithic kernels. >For a fun discussion of this, there is a series of articles were Linus >and Andy Tanenbaum 'discussed' the merits of both of these when Linux >was in it's infancy. I think Po-Han misunderstood what 'monolithic' means. He referred to monolithic as meaning controlled, whereas monolithic - as opposed to microkernel - is really a description of the OS design. Both BSD and Linux are monolithic in this respect. In any case, one has to qualify what is mean by "controlled". Many say that BSD is tightly controlled by the BSD core team, whereas Linux is developed through a loose, uncentralised, group of programmers. My understanding is that anyone can contribute to BSD as well, so that the real difference is that whereas a team decides what goes into BSD, only one person decides what goes into Linux (namely, Linus). Big deal. -- Raoul Golan, Consultant for Object Oriented P/L, at =Those who have put out Intelligent Networks Development, Telecom Australia =the people's eyes Also student at Macquarie Univ. School of History, =despise them for their Philosophy and Politics. EMAIL:raoul@ind.tansu.com.au =blindness. - Milton ------------------------------ From: dcflood@u.washington.edu (David Flood) Subject: Re: Linux doesn't like my cache Date: 7 Oct 1994 05:25:40 GMT Well, both other settings bomb out also so I guess that the cache is out for now. Anyone got a test for cache mem chips? -- ============================================================================= dcflood@u.washington.edu The above opinions are mine alone and do not reflect anyone elses. Besides, who wants my opinion anyway? ============================================================================= ------------------------------ From: michaelb@hobbie.bocaraton.ibm.com (Michael Rogero Brown (Sys Admin)) Subject: Re: where to get the texbook Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 21:54:42 GMT CVL staff member Nate Sammons (nate@matisse.VIS.ColoState.Edu) wrote: : The book from O'Reilley is good for configuring Tex, but it doesn't : cover hardly _any_ issues in using TeX (like how to do left and : right justification) It's not supposed too! The intent of the book is to help you get TeX (and its myriad programs) up and running. You're expected to use other books (like Knuth's TeXbook) to learn how to use TeX et al. That's why its title "Making TeX Work" not 'How to Use TeX'. -- ==========All Opinions Expressed are MINE, not IBM's============== Michael Rogero Brown (*IX System Administrator) IBM (uK Development) TEL/TIE (407) 443-6400 Boca Raton, FL Internet: mikal@bocaraton.ibm.com If you think I speak for IBM, then I've got some swamp land^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H real estate to sell you. GCM/CS d-- h-- s g+ p1 au a w+ v C++$ UA++++$ US+ UH+ P+>++ L>++ 3 N(+++) K W--- M-- V>-- -p+ Y+ t 5++ j(++) r !G v+ b+++ !D b--- e+++ u+ h+ f !r n x? ------------------------------ From: jjofre@ritz.mordor.com (Jaime Jofre) Subject: Re: X News-reader for LinuX Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 01:13:33 GMT Marc Fraioli (mjf@clark.net) wrote: : In article 0019154A@indirect.com, cauthorn@indirect.com (Robert S. Cauthorn) writes: : >But are any of the X news readers threaded? I haven't found one yet, unless : >I'm using older versions of xvnews and xrn. : > : Not really, that I know of, but some are close. I use xvnews 2.2.1, and : although it's not threaded, it will sort the messages alphabetically by : subject, and it's smart enough to ignore "Re:"s at the beginning. This : is not quite the same as being fully threaded, but it seems close enough : for me. Also, DEC has a version of xrn, called dxrn, which does do threading. : So far, however, I have not found a way to enable this automatically-- you : have to choose "thread articles" off a menu every single time you enter : a group. This is quite annoying. Also, dxrn wants either the DECwindows : or Motif widgets. I've never seen it running on Linux, although I suspect : the Motif version should work (I've built it on Ultrix, OSF/1, SunOS, A/UX, : and SCO). : >Incidentally, is there a faq or something that lists the major X internet : >clients? I'd love to see it in case I'm missing something. : > : Dunno, but it would be long...I use xvnews, Mosaic, xarchie, and mftp on Linux. : I use Mosaic for hitting gophers as well as Web servers. : --- : Marc Fraioli | "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist- " : mjf@clark.net | - Last words of Union General John Sedgwick, : | Battle of Spotsylvania Court House, U.S. Civil War ------------------------------ From: amichalo@liberty.uc.wlu.edu (Aaron K. Michalove) Subject: Re: New Linux Distribution Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 05:18:05 GMT What the DOS user REALLY needs for using LINUX.... GOOD DOCUMENTATION that relates common DOS commands to UNIX commands. The "problem" is with the complexity and unfamiliarity of the UNIX commands. I think that a good documentation project (hello LDP members!) for UNIX commands, indexed by their DOS siblings, as well as a section for all those "crazy little things" DOS just doesn't offer, like a section on "If you are on 'the NET'..." - people who are using LINUX at home have no need, unless they have access to a dialup, to have IRC and TELNET and all that stuff cluttering their little minds. There should definitely be a section on multiuser - like how to change passwords, permissions, ownership, how to read "drwxr-xr-x", etc. I would actually like to have a printout of a complete listing like this next to my Linux Box :-) -Aaron ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video,comp.os.linux.help From: leeuw@cwi.nl (Andre M.A. van Leeuwen) Subject: Re: Idek 8617 + ???? @ 1280x1024x(76-80)Hz Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 14:01:53 GMT In article <37115k$i1f@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, jsun@athena.mit.edu (Jim Sun) writes: |> bgrigg@unicoi.uucp (Bryon G. Rigg) wrote: |> |> >I am purchasing an Idek 8617 monitor and want reccommendations for a video |> >accellerator. The Idek reports to have refresh rates up 80Hz for 1280x1024. |> >I am looking for a card that can support this. |> >I will use this for Windoze and Linux/XFree86 so windows performance is more |> >important than dos performance. I have around $275(US) to spend and want the |> >best performance at the highest refresh rate. |> >I have looking at prices and foound the ATI Ultra Pro 2Mb (Mach 32) fits |> >within my operational and monetary constraints. Can this board give me |> >the refresh rates that I am looking for? |> |> I don't think any card will do 80hz at 1280x1024 in Windoze; due to the |> moron-proof user interface, manufacture would have to create a special |> entry for the IDEK: 1280x1024 on 135mhz, which will fry other monitors, |> most of which are maxed out at 110mhz. |> As for XF86, it's a completely different story; any card that supports |> 135mhz dot-clock will do. However, I think ATI GUP (mach32) maxes out |> at 110mhz. A number of 864 cards can handle 135mhz; you can get Diamond |> Stl64 for $265 if you can trade-in any garbage; now, according to the XF |> doc, Diamond finally changed their policy towards XF86. |> |> Jim The ATI GUP with 2mb VRAM I have performs just fine, using a dotclock of 135Mhz it displays 1280x1024 resolution 256 colors at refreshrate 74Hz. Be sure to get the Pro version with VRAM instead of DRAM, otherwise the memory can't cope with the speed resulting in 'snow' when moving windows around. -- ================================================= |Drs. Andre M.A. van Leeuwen leeuw@cwi.nl| |Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science (CWI)| |Kruislaan 413, 1098 SJ Amsterdam, The Netherlands| ================================================= ------------------------------ From: mkshenk@u.washington.edu (Mary Shenk) Crossposted-To: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video,comp.os.linux.help Subject: Re: Idek 8617 + ???? @ 1280x1024x(76-80)Hz Date: 7 Oct 1994 00:37:49 GMT In article <37115k$i1f@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu>, Jim Sun wrote: >bgrigg@unicoi.uucp (Bryon G. Rigg) wrote: > >>I am purchasing an Idek 8617 monitor and want reccommendations for a video >>accellerator. The Idek reports to have refresh rates up 80Hz for 1280x1024. >I don't think any card will do 80hz at 1280x1024 in Windoze; due to the >moron-proof user interface, manufacture would have to create a special >entry for the IDEK: 1280x1024 on 135mhz, which will fry other monitors, >most of which are maxed out at 110mhz. >As for XF86, it's a completely different story; any card that supports >135mhz dot-clock will do. However, I think ATI GUP (mach32) maxes out >at 110mhz. A number of 864 cards can handle 135mhz; you can get Diamond Wrong. As I just said, the GUP has a 135Mhz pixel clock. It also takes more than 135 to drive 1280x1024 @80hz...at least in all cases I am aware of. ------------------------------ From: ray@eskimo.com (Raymond Kraft) Subject: DooM: Sound but no Music? Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 12:48:51 GMT Somebody posted a message about this a little while ago, but I didn't see any solutions posted. In particular, I'm running xdoom under Linux 1.0 with the 2.9 sounddriver and a SoundBlaster 16 ASP. I hear all the sound effects, but I don't hear any music. I made sure the the music volume slider was turned up, so that does not appear to be the problem. If anyone else has encountered this and has any kind suggestions, I'd be grateful. Thanks in advance. -- -Ray Kraft Seattle, Washington ray@eskimo.com ------------------------------ From: jik@cam.ov.com (Jonathan I. Kamens) Subject: Re: SW Technologies Date: 7 Oct 1994 16:06:54 GMT In article <3726hn$ihe@delphi.cs.ucla.edu>, edwin@maui.cs.ucla.edu (E. Robert Tisdale) writes: |> Marvin Wu is a competent and conscientious Linux workstation vendor. That may be your opinion. It is not mine. |> He certainly believed your machine was in good working order |> when he sent it to you and it has not failed since you sent it back. Really? Did the keyboard suddenly magically start generating the Alt-Shift-> sequence that it couldn't generate for the whole time I had it? Has Marvin Wu actually tried to use it as strenuously as I used it while I had it? Has he used it to do compute-intensive things for prolonged periods of time in a 72-degree room? That's what I was doing with it, and that's the environment in which it was failing (I did, incidentally, ask Wu if the room was too hot for the machine, and he said that it wasn't). I seriously doubt that he has done this kind of testing on the machine. |> and you agreed to ship your machine back to SWT |> within 30 days for a full refund if you were not satisfied. Marvin Wu |> extended this money back guaranty to 60 days then 90 days at your request. Wu extended the warrantee because the machine never worked properly and I told him that if he didn't extend the warrantee, I was going to ship the machine back immediately because I was not satisfied. He had the option of choosing to extend the warrantee or have me return the machine, and he chose the former. That's his problem, not mine. |> Since you have made no attempt to acquire another Linux workstation, |> it is not clear that any PC-clone vendor would be able to provide you |> with satisfactory service. As I told you in E-mail, it is not necessary to experience good service in order to know when one is experiencing bad service. I've had a number of people contact me and tell me they had similar problems with SWT (including someone else who got a machine that didn't work, spent months installing replacement parts from SWT to try to get it to work, and then finally returned it, only to have the refund check bounce just like mine did!). I've read first-hand accounts from a number of people who bought Pentium systems from other vendors who were extraordinarily pleased with the service they received and who had no hardware problems with the systems at all, for a long time after they purchased them. That is as it should be. When a vendor ships a machine, the machine should work. If it doesn't, the vendor has done something wrong. If that vendor ships machines that don't work with some frequency, then there is something wrong with the vendor. |> It might even appear that you decided that |> you didn't really need or couldn't afford a new workstation sometime |> after you made your deal with SWT and that you just strung Marvin Wu |> along for three months then tried to beat him out of the shipping costs |> as well. This accusation is offensive and baseless, notwithstanding the fact that you prefix it with "might". I have not bought another machine because I have not had time. That's what I told you in E-mail, and I even provided an extensive explanation of why I have not had time. Getting married, going on a honeymoon, moving into a new apartment, missing almost two work weeks (all of which had to be made up) for Jewish holidays, and working sixty- and seventy-hour work weeks can eliminate most of a person's free time, you know. If anyone seriously believes that I returned the machine to SWT because I decided I "didn't really need or couldn't afford a new workstation," I will be glad to provide any number of character references -- people who know that I would never do what is being suggested, and people who know that I had continuous problems with the machine for three months and finally returned it only as a last resort. |> It appears to me that Marvin Wu made an honest effort to live up to his part |> of the agreement He may have made an effort, honest or otherwise, but he never succeeded. My machine never worked. Bob, are you speaking from the point of view of a satisfied customer of SWT or something more? Are you and Wu acquaintenaces, perhaps, or even friends? You did tell me in E-mail that you are "on reasonably good terms with Marvin Wu." What exactly does that mean? -- Jonathan Kamens | OpenVision Technologies, Inc. | jik@cam.ov.com ------------------------------ From: mah@ka4ybr.com (Mark A. Horton KA4YBR) Subject: Re: where to get the texbook Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 04:03:42 GMT Hans Petter Fasteng (hansf@kfdata.no) wrote: : I hope to learn how to make docs in tex, I also hoped to make info pages and : I think I need the texbook to do this. Where can I get this book or books? : -Hans O'Reilly has a new book out... "Making TeX Work" that is very good. You can find it in most computer bookstores or via (I think this is right!) info@ora.com They are also on WWW somewhere... stumbled on them whilst playing with Mosaic. :) - Mark -- "Linux! Guerrilla UNIX Development Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus." ============================================================ Mark A. Horton ka4ybr mah@ka4ybr.atl.ga.us P.O. Box 747 Decatur GA US 30031-0747 mah@ka4ybr.com +1.404.371.0291 33 45 31 N / 084 16 59 W ------------------------------ From: mah@ka4ybr.com (Mark A. Horton KA4YBR) Subject: Re: Linux mentioned in PC Week Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 04:20:34 GMT Maxim Spivak (maxims@ucsee.EECS.Berkeley.EDU) wrote: : > Without DOS and Windows the world of computing would probably : >be a lot more developed today than what it is. Everything that : Well... Don't forget that MS targets the _general_ market, i.e. your : grandma, grandpa, and dog in addition to you, the superuser. For : _general_ users, MS Windows with Windows apps is probably a better choice : than Linux. But not necessarily for me or you. Oh... I dunno... my 74 year-old Dad seems to be pretty happy with his Linux system... his only gripe is that there don't seem to be any uucp sites to connect to in the Ft. Myers, FL area! (BTW: anyone down there that can help him out?) (My dog's still saving up for a special keyboard :) ... ) : >MicroSloth gets on the market today is supposed to be new and : >groundbreaking technology...although most of what they have to offer : >has already been implemented in the unix world long ago. MS has been : Yeah, but could the 8088 in 1981 run UNIX? Probably--Microsoft did buy : Xenix. But Lotus 123 was written for DOS, which was what probably : solidified MS-DOS as _the_ major OS for Intel boxes. I kinda thought that the IBM PC did that by legitimising a hitherto fragmented market. And wasn't Lotus 123 stolen ..errr.. "borrowed as in look-and-feel" from Visicalc? I can't remember exactly... old-timer's disease, you know... :) : I personally think that there's place in the computing world both for : various Unices and MS-Windows-type OS's. They are generally used by : different audiences, with only a little overlap. Actually, I agree with you here... I've given up trying to convert the world to Linux. If they're happy with DOS and Windows (and the wonderful stability they have ), leave them be. Use something like samba and connect to a Linux server for file sharing and such, but leave them happy and in the same state of mastery/confusion as they've come to love. Just my .0000005 cents worth. - Mark -- ... Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film. ============================================================ Mark A. Horton ka4ybr mah@ka4ybr.atl.ga.us P.O. Box 747 Decatur GA US 30031-0747 mah@ka4ybr.com +1.404.371.0291 33 45 31 N / 084 16 59 W ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is: Internet: Linux-Misc-Request@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.misc) via: Internet: Linux-Misc@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites: nic.funet.fi pub/OS/Linux tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux End of Linux-Misc Digest ******************************