From: Digestifier To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Date: Fri, 14 Oct 94 21:13:31 EDT Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #940 Linux-Misc Digest #940, Volume #2 Fri, 14 Oct 94 21:13:31 EDT Contents: Re: What is Linux good for? (Daniel Woodard) Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux? (READ THIS!) (Byron A Jeff) Comments about the Linux WP idea (davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu) Re: Nailed down to 386bsd or linux, now which one? (Lennart Augustsson) Re: What is Linux good for? (Steven Buytaert) Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux? (Thomas Petersen) Re: Yggdrasil Fall 1994: buyers be aware (Roger Bicknell) Re: What is Linux good for? (Dan Newcombe) Re: [INFO WANTED] C/SLIP vs. PPP (Harmon Seaver) Re: transparent ftp filesystem? (Harald Milz) Re: Linux & Windows... (DAVID L. JOHNSON) Re: ez (was Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux?) (Byron A Jeff) Re: Does all SCO software run on Linux (Scott Weinstein) Re: Lilo booting last booted OS. (Rasquin Jean-Pierre) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SA073@getty.onu.edu (Daniel Woodard) Subject: Re: What is Linux good for? Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:50:43 GMT >FAQ??? They even don't check the name of the group on which they are That's an outright lie. I looked for a faq. Not finding one, I posted this message. ------------------------------ From: byron@gemini.cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff) Subject: Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux? (READ THIS!) Date: 14 Oct 1994 15:51:57 GMT In article <37lv3s$ho0@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>, Gareth Webber wrote: >I am sorry but what is wrong with using the iBCS module and running SCO >wordperfect. In fact iBCS currently allows linux to run binaries from >lots of other intel unices with work on *BSD being made as we speak. Because of the audience. Typical conversation. (NU: Newbie User, LE: Linux Enthusiast) Senario after a brand new Linux installation on NU machine. LE: See. With Linux you can have multiple users, multiple tasks, all at the same time. NU: Ok where is the Wordprocessor? LE: Well all I have to do is get the IBSC2 package and install it. It's on tsx-11.mit.edu. Oh Oh we don't have a net connection from here. NU: So you mean it doesn't have a wordprocessor? LE: No it just has to be installed. WordPerfect runs fine. NU: Well there's a copy of Windows 6.0 Wordperfect on the DOS disk. Run that. LE: Well I can't because Linux doesn't run windows applications. NU: What about DOS then? LE: Sure. The DOS emulator runs all DOS applications. But I'll have to install the emulator. Hmm. That's on sunsite. I can get a floppy with it tomorrow. NU: So your telling me that Linux has no Wordprocessor unless you add something else that you don't have with you. It's too complicated. Take it off my machine. Note that this is a paraphrased conversation I've had with a couple of new users. Point being that Linux does need a native wordprocessor that doesn't depend on emulation. > >Linux doesn't need a WP of its own when it can be used as a base to run >apps from all the other major opearing systems (unices, windows under wine >ans dos under dosemu). Yes it does. Linux needs to have its own native apps just like all the other systems have their own native apps. It'll run faster, requires much less setup, and most improtantly it can be free so that it can be distributed with the disk. Now it doesn't have to be anything fancy. In fact I've taken a cursory look at HWP and it's about 1/2 to being perfectly usable. Most WP users don't use all the "kitchen sink" fancy features that most products tout. Usually it's just formatting (centering, indentation, bullets) and style (font type, size, and bold,italic,and underlined) along with a simple way to specify these things. I mean anyone who can use the function keys for WordPerfect should be thrilled with a simple Point and Click interface. How hard can it be to develop something like this? All the basic tools are already available: - Text editor with color highlighting (JED) - A mouse package that can be integrated into the editor (the selection replacement that sends events to applications in addition to performing all of selection's original functions) - Popup menu support (dialog) - Any number of formatters. I prefer QuikScript because it compresses the format/reder step into one step. However TeX or nroff could be used. - A renderer, GhostScript, that works with almost any graphics printer. - A previewer, GhostView/GhostScript, So that you can see what it looks like before you print. Note that Ghostscript can display on a normal Linux console. All this software already exist. All it really needs is a couple of enterprising people to pull it all together into a single package. As I have stated before I cannot by that person because I'm embroiled (actually it feels like being broiled) in my PhD research. I'll be happy to suggest a plan, coordinate efforts, and of course test. But as to actually doing it as much as I'd like to I can't right now. The above elements can be used to put together a functional product. The only thing that's missing is any hint of WYSIWYG. For a text version this would primarily consist of highlighting attributed text, showing some form of indentation/centering, and most importantly when the font size/style changes accurately showing the characters on each line and the lines on each page. Obviously for the X version a more sophitcated product is needed. But I point out the the EZ Wordprocessor performs many of the functions in a X environment. It's native and freely available. However it doesn't do diddly for a virtual console, telnet session, or a terminal session. That's why I'm suggesting that we focus in that direction. Comments? BAJ -- Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of... Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel - And Using Linux! Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332 Internet: byron@cc.gatech.edu ------------------------------ From: davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu Crossposted-To: comp.unix.questions Subject: Comments about the Linux WP idea Date: 14 Oct 1994 21:45:50 GMT Reply-To: davis@amy.tch.harvard.edu In article <37mion$kjm@solaria.cc.gatech.edu>, byron@gemini.cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff) writes: : I think we can integrate existing editor (JED), menu(dialog), mouse(the : selection replacement of the Mouseless Commander), formatter (QuikScript), : and renderer (GhostScript) into a workable system that can meet the basic : wordprocessing demands of most folks. The fundamental question is how the buffer is going to be implemented--- what will the data structure look like. Fundamentally, a word processor and an editor are very different. I suspect that the best choice for a data structure for the WP would consist of a linked list of paragraphs. Perhaps the paragraph should be implemented as a buffer gap. Also, how will the character attributes be stored? Should we store an attribute with each character? Should the data structure consist of a parallel stream of attributes? Questions like this are going to be fundamental to the development of the WP. I suspect that it is NOT a good idea to integrate an existing editor into the WP. The user interface should be fairly simple to implement. For example, consider my S-Lang library. It already has routines for multiple keymaps, keyboard tty input, Screen Managment Facility (with color), etc... In fact, much of JED is interfaced to this library. The rest of JED consists of routines to handle its representation of the buffer. Finally, I am also working on a Text based window library for S-Lang. One could incorporate this library into the WP to handle windows, Scroll bars, dialog boxes, etc... to make it look pretty. But, the fundamental question remains: What will the representation of the buffer look like? Finally, is this project worth doing? How well does DOSEMU run Wordperfect? Can it run Wordperfect over a serial line? If we ever do get a WP for Linux off the ground and functional, will it be better than Wordperfect running under DOSEMU over a serial line? (I am emphasising serial line because I would like to use something like it remotely from, e.g., a vt100) -- _____________ #___/John E. Davis\_________________________________________________________ # # internet: davis@amy.tch.harvard.edu # bitnet: davis@ohstpy # office: 617-735-6746 # ------------------------------ From: augustss@cs.chalmers.se (Lennart Augustsson) Crossposted-To: comp.os.386bsd.misc Subject: Re: Nailed down to 386bsd or linux, now which one? Date: 14 Oct 1994 16:02:30 GMT In article <37l61p$4qr@elaine.teleport.com> bmk@teleport.com (bmk) writes: > P.S. Linux is a fine product. I'm not slamming it; I just happen to > have an irrational dislike of all that is System V. :) Irrational? What's irrational about disliking System V. :-) ------------------------------ From: buytaert@imec.be (Steven Buytaert) Subject: Re: What is Linux good for? Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 07:40:33 GMT Daniel Woodard (SA073@getty.onu.edu) wrote: : I found this group today. How well does it do multitasking? Does it run : under Windows or DOS? Maybe you could try to read *** READ THIS BEFORE POSTING *** tomorrow ? -- Steven Buytaert WORK buytaert@imec.be HOME buytaert@innet.be 'Imagination is more important than knowledge.' (A. Einstein) ------------------------------ From: petersen@fys-hp-1.risoe.dk (Thomas Petersen) Crossposted-To: comp.unix.questions Subject: Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux? Date: 14 Oct 1994 16:03:51 GMT Miguel Alvarez Blanco (miguel@carbono.quimica.uniovi.es) wrote: > I won't claim that LaTeX is a good multilingual processor, but my master > thesis was written on it, in spanish, without troubles. Sure, Hebrew, Kanji > and lots of other languages are not there, but at least it's a step forward. Eh? The LaTeX package I dowloaded included support for several African languages, Gothic (a medieval rune system), Both of the Futharks, several versions of Tolkien's alphabets, Hebrew, Georgian, a couple of languages somebody probably just made up and God knows what else. I challenge you to name an alphabet that doesn't have at least some support. > BTW, I use vi as the editor for my LaTeX documents, so I'm probably brain > dead myself :-) vi, sed and awk: This is what text processing tools are supposed to be like! :-) Thomas ------------------------------ From: bicknell@mdd.comm.mot.com (Roger Bicknell) Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help Subject: Re: Yggdrasil Fall 1994: buyers be aware Date: 14 Oct 1994 12:49:10 -0700 In crawford@think.com (Lee Crawford) writes: >In article , :yxiao@umabnet.ab.umd.edu (Yan Xiao) wrote: :: :: We purchased Yggdrasil Fall 1994 Plug-and-Play recently, :: and here are some of the problems we`ve encountered so far: :: [much deleted] :: :: The current yggdrasil CD is our second buy, and I can :: see the decline in quality. I sincerely hope that folks :: at yggdrasil keep up the spirit of Plug-'n-Play, while :: at the same time improve quality. :: :I don't think it IS classified as experimental, do you have this from ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ :Yygdrasil, or is this your assumption because you failed to get it to work? :If you have a memory manager in your config.sys, that could probobly :screw you up. Have you stripped your config.sys down to nothing but :your CD-ROM driver? I just purchased Yggdrasil Linux. (yeah... me and my sony cdu33a cdrom, and sc400 fx sound card) Yeah, I agree, I don't think that it IS classified as "experimental." BTW I'm running a 486DX-33 isa, 8M ram, mach32 video, 540M ide WD, sc400 sound, sony cdu33a cdrom, connor 120 tape, 14.4k supra 32bis (external), a: is a 3.5" floppy, and Yggdrasil Fall'94 Linux. :: Next, I tried to boot Linux by using the bootflpy.phl (I have ::the LMSI CM205 CD). It recognized the CD and say "LMSI CD Ready" but then ::the boottrap program complaints about SONY CD31a and 525 and "Unable to mount ::VFS". I got the errata, but there seems no fixes for these problems yet. :If you have a sony 31a running off the sony driver, then you need the :revision B boot disk and system stuff. Have you gotten that yet? :(Its mentioned in the errata.) Yup. Been there. Done (all) that. Still, although this revB kernal will boot, I get a zillion complaints about read-only filesystem and the install aborted. I've found no way to dosload it; it don't matter _what_ I do with my config.sys/autoexec.bat - I've tried all 5327 combinations ;) And now I'm starting to understand what movie-writer John Cleese (of Monty Python fame) meant when he had the protagonist in "Clockwise" say, "it's not the constant failure that gets me [down] so, it's the *hope*. That's what really slays me!" [sorry about the terrible paraphrase]. I've found another machine which will boot this Linux "plug-and-play." Now I can try rebuilding the kernal... oh no! there goes my Hope again! (as if I really had a _clue_ as to what I'm doing!) I haven't found any way to get the logitech busmouse to work yet on this 486DX-66 16M ram, mitsumi cdrom, machine (which _will_ boot the "plug-and-play") so I've a mountain yet to overcome (pro noblem, I have me spoon all ready...) I'm starting to think that this Linux thing is really "Doom II" and is the ultimate nightmare [virtual] reality game - AND I'M TRAPPED INSIDE!!! (thanks, I feel better now). Do I have a question? Uh... ok... "why me?" No... wait! Here's a reeeeel question: I downloaded the revB vmlinux from ftp.yggdrasil.com and RAWRITE'ed it to a floppy. I took this home and booted from it. It did find my sony cdu33a cdrom. But the root drive will not give me permission to write ANYTHING to it, even as 'root' user - thus all fails. Can anyone help? IS there something that I can do to undo this 'permission denied' business? HELP!!!!! -r. "I've got an inferiority complex, but it's not a very good one" bickles -- bicknell@mdd.comm.mot.com (Roger Bicknell) Remember: "Guns don't kill people and GNU is Not Unix." =] ------------------------------ From: newcombe@aa.csc.peachnet.edu (Dan Newcombe) Subject: Re: What is Linux good for? Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:00:34 UNDEFINED In article SA073@getty.onu.edu (Daniel Woodard) writes: >>FAQ??? They even don't check the name of the group on which they are > That's an outright lie. I looked for a faq. Not finding one, I posted >this message. Where did you look? There is one. There is quite a bit if you count the HOW-TO's etc... -- Dan Newcombe newcombe@aa.csc.peachnet.edu -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "And the man in the mirror has sad eyes." -Marillion ------------------------------ From: hseaver@nyx.cs.du.edu (Harmon Seaver) Subject: Re: [INFO WANTED] C/SLIP vs. PPP Date: 14 Oct 1994 17:40:06 -0600 Reply-To: hseaver@nyx.cs.du.edu I'm doing a class project to try to convince various grade and high school officials that they would be much smarter to buy a 586 and 100 dumb terminals and run Linux/Xwindows/Motif than buying 100 macs. Or even just running Linux in text mode, since mostly what school computers are used for is just word processing anyway, and have a few macs or whatever for the other stuff. So here's my question: How much RAM and how much swap space does a 586 need (or a 486 even) to run 100 terminals, either in text mode or Xwin mode? And can I even run Xwin on dumb terminals? Also, does anyone know of any good cheap vga res terminals w/color? Last time I looked, a few years ago, the cheapest was about $800. Also, what would you use for ports for that many terminals? Thanx. Harmon Seaver hseaver@nyx.cs.du.edu <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> "The Way of the Samurai is death." - Jocho Yamamoto 1710 Hagakure <> <> "Let no man's life stand in the way -- especially your own." <> <> Miyamoto Musashi 1584-1645 <> <> "The fundamental delusion of humanity is to suppose that I am here <> <> and you are out there." Yasutani Roshi <> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ From: hm@ix.de (Harald Milz) Subject: Re: transparent ftp filesystem? Reply-To: hm@ix.de Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:49:58 GMT In comp.os.linux.misc, Benjamin John Walter (ben@tsunami.demon.co.uk) wrote: > Is anyone currently working on a filesystem that would provide > transparent access to files over ftp? I've seen that GNU would like > to see such an fs in their Hurd system, and I'd be interested in > getting in touch with anyone working in this area on Linux. You can use the ange-ftp package for Emacs or even Mosaic ... Seriously, there is something like a ftp filesystem as a sample in the userfs package. -- Disclaimer: "These opinions are my own, though for a small fee they be yours too." -- Dave Haynie -- Harald Milz (hm@ix.de) WWW: http://www.ix.de/editors/hm.html iX Multiuser Multitasking Magazine phone +49 (511) 53 52-377 Helstorfer Str. 7, D-30625 Hannover fax +49 (511) 53 52-378 Opinions stated herein are my own, not necessarily my employer's. my employer's. ------------------------------ From: dlj0@Lehigh.EDU (DAVID L. JOHNSON) Subject: Re: Linux & Windows... Date: 14 Oct 1994 16:45:16 GMT In article <37lk0s$kgj@kubds1.kub.nl>, paai@kub.nl (J.J. Paijmans) writes: >In article <1994Oct12.142601.23816@lulea.trab.se> anders@lulea.trab.se (Anders Eriksson) writes: >>Hi all, >> >>I've hurd a rumour about Linux beeing able to run windows on the console. >>I standard mode of course kind of like an ordinary dos graphic app. >>Is that true??? >> >>Since I don't follow this newsgroup regulary, please mail your replies. >> > >And for everybody else: No. > >I don't want to hurt the people who work on the WINE-project, but the >persistent rumour "...that you can run MS-Windows under Linux..." >leads people to expectations that are not founded in reality. Such >disappointments may cause people to think that the rest of Linux too >is just hype. > >Therefore I would suggest that we, Linux partisans,keep a low profile >on WINE unless at least those MS-Windows applications that come with >the original distribution, work without problems. > >Paai. > Agreed, but that wasn't the question. I believe the question was whether dosemu could handle, perhaps, Windows 3.0 in real mode. I thought I read that the answer was yes. Whether that would be acceptable or not is another question. As far as Wine goes, there was a great deal of progress being made a few months back, more and more things were running, and those that were were running better all the time. That seems to have slowed down now, which is a shame. But, it is a difficult project. You probably know that WABI, which inspired wine, also is limited in the number of app's it can run (I believe I saw an ad suggesting some dozen or so programs that were certified to run). I also don't think the benchmark of success with wine should be write or solitaire, either, but the kinds of product that would enable more people to leave the Gates behind, like WP/windows, Quicken, Lotus. With the advent of iBCS, which allows us to use SCO, etc., binaries, and commercial linux programs like Maple, there is less of a push in that direction, and with MS acquiring Quicken, they will push ever harder to make their software unworkable on anything but their own system. -- David L. Johnson dlj0@lehigh.edu or Department of Mathematics dlj0@chern.math.lehigh.edu Lehigh University 14 E. Packer Avenue (610) 758-3759 Bethlehem, PA 18015-3174 (610) 828-3708 ------------------------------ From: byron@gemini.cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff) Crossposted-To: comp.unix.questions Subject: Re: ez (was Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux?) Date: 14 Oct 1994 17:00:29 GMT In article <1994Oct10.185245.15648@midway.uchicago.edu>, Richard L. Goerwitz wrote: >davis@amy.tch.harvard.edu writes: >>It is X only. I think Linux needs something more general for non-X >>terminals. I spend 90% of my time using MS-Kermit connected via a dialup >>line. I imagine that I am not alone. > > >Aside: > >Personally, I don't that dial-up character-based I/O is the future of >computing. To bend over backwards to suit this constituency would be >to cripple any forward-looking WP, and to slow development. Unfortunately it's elitist. My lab has 50 vt-320 terminals and no X-terminals. So my students who would use such a product are out of luck. I'm typing this from a Linux box with a CGA card and original issue IBM PC Color Display. Am I not worthy of this product? Not to bend over backwards but to realize that a single interface cannot solve all the problems. Have both. Enhance the X version. Later, BAJ -- Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of... Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel - And Using Linux! Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332 Internet: byron@cc.gatech.edu ------------------------------ From: swein@csc.albany.edu (Scott Weinstein) Subject: Re: Does all SCO software run on Linux Date: 11 Oct 1994 02:46:24 GMT >>>>> "Mike" == Mike Jagdis writes: Mike> The fact that many, *many* people seem to be using iBCS but Mike> hardly anyone talks to me would appear to suggest Mike> there are few applications that have significant problems. I Mike> might be reduced to adding 286 Xenix support soon :-(. I posted about this in comp.windows.x.i368unix, but got no replies. I've been using WP 5.1 for sco unix with linux and Xfree 2.1 for about a month with no real problems. I recently tried to upgrade to XFree 3.1. When I tried out WP, it gave give me lots of Xm* error and then wold give me a seg violation. One time it cause my HD to do *something* for about 1/2 hour. I ended up rebooting that time. I'm at kernel 1.1.45 and am now back to Xfree 2.1. ------------------------------ From: rasquin@crpcu.lu (Rasquin Jean-Pierre) Subject: Re: Lilo booting last booted OS. Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 12:26:51 GMT In article <372rua$1cau@cygnus.lnec.pt> mvalente@draco.lnec.pt () writes: >From: mvalente@draco.lnec.pt () >Subject: Re: Lilo booting last booted OS. >Date: 7 Oct 1994 07:04:42 GMT >Bruno Van Wilder (bvwilder@elis.rug.ac.be) wrote: >: rutger@arrakis.kub.nl wrote: >: : I would like to know if it is possible that Lilo will boot the last booted >: : OS. E.g. if I boot Linux then Lilo will keep on booting linux 'till I select >: : another OS (MS-Dos). I liked this feature in the SLS distribution (0.99.X), >: : but it is gone in the slackware distribution. >: I do not think it is possible yet, but it is a good idea indeed. Well it _is_ possible if you only have two OS's to switch between. You can put MS-DOS as the first OS in lilo.conf and Linux as the second one. There is an option in LILO (don't remeber which one now... it's in the readme anyway) which enables to select which OS to boot next, but only once. In other words, LILO would boot the (this way) selected OS, and boot the standart first OS in any other subsequent bootup. If you now put this command in rc.local, each time you'd boot Linux, it would set-up Linux as next boot default. If you now select DOS, you'd override this setting, and any subsequent bootup would boot the default OS, which is DOS. This has worked fine for me for almost a year now. If you have any questions left, ask ;-) JP. ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is: Internet: Linux-Misc-Request@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.misc) via: Internet: Linux-Misc@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites: nic.funet.fi pub/OS/Linux tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux End of Linux-Misc Digest ******************************