499 lines
20 KiB
Plaintext
499 lines
20 KiB
Plaintext
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu>
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To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu
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Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu
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Date: Mon, 12 Sep 94 14:13:40 EDT
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Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #746
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Linux-Misc Digest #746, Volume #2 Mon, 12 Sep 94 14:13:40 EDT
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Contents:
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Q: Reading from a ext2fs partition from DOS? (Won Hong)
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Re: The snatchability factor (was Re: WABI vs (Martin Sohnius)
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Re: DOOM for Linux (Christophe Person)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: jesse@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Won Hong)
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Subject: Q: Reading from a ext2fs partition from DOS?
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Date: 12 Sep 1994 17:34:36 GMT
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Hi, sorry if this is a stupid question, didn't really do any searching
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for this yet, but I haven't seen anything on c.o.l.announce.
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Just wondering if there is a DOS program you can use to be able to
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read the Linux ext2fs partitions, guess it would be something like
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the mscdex thing to read iso9660 format. It would just be nice to
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be able to access things on all my drives in either operating system.
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Thanks in advance.
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Jesse Hong.
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jesse@mit.edu
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------------------------------
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Crossposted-To: comp.sys.hp,comp.sys.hp.apps,comp.sys.sun.apps,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.apps,comp.unix.unixware
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From: msohnius@novell.co.uk (Martin Sohnius)
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Subject: Re: The snatchability factor (was Re: WABI vs
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Date: Mon, 12 Sep 1994 15:35:56 GMT
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An unfortunate flame-has started here between J.J. (Hans) Paaijmans and
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myself. I had indeed not realised that he felt threatened by my occasional
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references to legal software copyright issues. He was not the target,
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and my argument with him was about totally different issues.
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Let me copy some of the proceedings, unfortunately at some length, since I
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don't intend to <snip> very much in an argument like this.
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This was, I believe, his opening of this thread, passed on from the long-running
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and generally high-strung "WABI vs. SoftWindows?" thread:
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| From: paai@kub.nl (J.J. Paijmans)
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| Subject: The snatchability factor (was Re: WABI vs. SoftWindows?)
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| Date: 24 Aug 1994 08:05:58 GMT
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| Organization: Tilburg University, Tilburg, The Netherlands
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| In article <Cuy18E.8DF@idm.com> tmb@idm.com (Thomas M Buccelli) writes:
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| >Sean Donnellan. (sean@foo-bar.dinoco.de) wrote:
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| >[... snip snip snip ...]
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| >
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| >> Linux is free therefore --> everyone can afford it therfore -->
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| >> we can sell products for Linux and be sure that everyone who has a 386 or
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| >> higher can run the software!!
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| ...
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| >
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| >The only problem I can see with your argument is getting people
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| >to spend $500+ for a software package when they received their OS
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| >for free. It seems more likely that the buyer of a $500+ software
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| >package would be the one who paid something for the OS.
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| I guess that if the market for such software expands dramatically
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| owing to the free OS, prices will rapidly become lower. And then
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| there is the "jatbaarheidsfactor" ("snatchability factor").
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| I reckon that a great part of the success of programs like
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| Wordperfect, or the Borland compilers, is due to the fact that
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| it is easily stolen. Same goes for the success of the old
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| Apple II and the IBM PC-designs, that were easily copied
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| by other manufactorers (sp?).
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| Without wanting a discussion on the ethics of copying software
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| and hardware design, I think that the rapid dispersal of copies
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| of good software does more for the original seller than
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| the loss of income - most copiers won't buy anyway but when
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| their boss looks for a good wordprocessor to buy for the
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| office, they know what to suggest.
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| I predict that as soon as illegal copies of, say, Wordperfect
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| for SCO (not demo's, but the real thing) are gonna circulate
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| in the Linux community, the figures of copies actually sold
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| will boom.
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| As a matter of fact, if *I* was the president of Wordperfect,
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| I would rush a copy of a WP binary compiled for Linux to
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| sunsite.unc.edu *immediatly*, and then sit back and wait
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| for the orders from universities.
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| Hans Paijmans.
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| PS: If mr. president-of-Wordperfect reads this and follows
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| my advice, I will settle for a fee of one single dollar
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| per WP4Linux sold. :-)
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Now this is where I hooked in:
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| From: msohnius@novell.co.uk (Martin Sohnius)
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| J.J. Paijmans (paai@kub.nl) wrote:
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| : [ mostly valid argument for allowing software theft snipped ]
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| : I predict that as soon as illegal copies of, say, Wordperfect
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| : for SCO (not demo's, but the real thing) are gonna circulate
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| : in the Linux community, the figures of copies actually sold
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| : will boom.
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| : As a matter of fact, if *I* was the president of Wordperfect,
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| : I would rush a copy of a WP binary compiled for Linux to
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| : sunsite.unc.edu *immediatly*, and then sit back and wait
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| : for the orders from universities.
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| : Hans Paijmans.
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| : PS: If mr. president-of-Wordperfect reads this and follows
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| : my advice, I will settle for a fee of one single dollar
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| : per WP4Linux sold. :-)
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| Mr President of Novell-Wordperfect Inc. (Bob Frankenberg) will sure be
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| pleased by your advice. Did you once say you were a computer journalist?
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| I am afraid, that your chances of getting a review copy of UnixWare
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| have just taken a knock.
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What I saw as his problem in getting review copies, was NOT his opinions
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regarding nicked software, which he shares with most academic users I have
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ever spoken to, and which I describe i the snip as "mostly valid", but
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rather the combination of his earlier claim to be a computer journalist,
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and his obvious ignorance of arguably the biggest piece of PC-software news
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this year: the Novell-Wordperfect merger.
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But obviously, he didn't understand me on this point:
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| From: paai@kub.nl (J.J. Paijmans)
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| In article <Cv3xt7.BwF@novell.co.uk> msohnius@novell.co.uk (Martin Sohnius) writes:
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| >J.J. Paijmans (paai@kub.nl) wrote:
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| ...
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| >
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| >: As a matter of fact, if *I* was the president of Wordperfect,
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| >: I would rush a copy of a WP binary compiled for Linux to
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| >: sunsite.unc.edu *immediatly*, and then sit back and wait
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| >: for the orders from universities.
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| >
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| >: Hans Paijmans.
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| >
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| >: PS: If mr. president-of-Wordperfect reads this and follows
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| >: my advice, I will settle for a fee of one single dollar
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| >: per WP4Linux sold. :-)
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| >
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| >Mr President of Novell-Wordperfect Inc. (Bob Frankenberg) will sure be
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| >pleased by your advice. Did you once say you were a computer journalist?
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| >I am afraid, that your chances of getting a review copy of UnixWare
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| >have just taken a knock.
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| >
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| > +--------------------------------------------+
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| >Martin Sohnius | "It doesn't matter whether the cat is |
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| Why? Because I predict that distributing free copies of WP4Unix will
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| increase sales? Or because I am of the opinion that illegal copies of
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| a program may actually bring in more benefits for the manufacturer in
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| the long run? Did you get the impression that I gave away copies of
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| software I had for reviewing purposes? Or that I endorsed stealing?
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| I honestly fail to understand what this has to do with getting
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| review copies of Unixware and I feel a bit vexed by your reaction.
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| hans Paijmans.
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I failed to respond reassuringly to the "vexed" thing, sorry! But to my
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defense I must say that I didn't feel like expounding on the fact of his
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ignorance of the WP-Novell merger.
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Then a totally new aspect opened up, nothing at all to do with J.J.
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Paaijmans:
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| From: ttonino@bio.vu.nl (Thomas Tonino)
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| Organization: VU Biology, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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| Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 21:35:59 GMT
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| As regarding the making availabele of a 'copy to illegaly copy'
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| wordperfect for Linux on Sunsite, I might want to call to your
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| attention that in the past Wordperfect Netherlands approach to
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| piracy has been something like 'It helps us sell'....
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| So... maybe it would be a good idea... but it should look less official I think.
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And my response to *this*, not to the previous stuff, was:
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| From: msohnius@novell.co.uk (Martin Sohnius)
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| Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 15:54:47 GMT
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| Thomas Tonino (ttonino@bio.vu.nl) wrote:
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| : As regarding the making availabele of a 'copy to illegaly copy'
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| : wordperfect for Linux on Sunsite, I might want to call to your
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| : attention that in the past Wordperfect Netherlands approach to
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| : piracy has been something like 'It helps us sell'....
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| : So... maybe it would be a good idea... but it should look less official I think.
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| I would have my doubts whether Novell-Wordperfect Inc. still has
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| this attitude. Why don't you try? (But I would recommend a VERY good
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| legal insurance policy first.)
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Now here *is* a threat: don't put Novell software on an ftp site, or
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else...
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I was also repudiating a perceived leniency by WP Netherlands, because in
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my opinion (and remember, all of this is my opinion!) Novell is unlikely to
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continue such an attitude, should it ever have existed. It goes against
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the grain of what I perceive as Novell's business philosophy. (We are,
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e.g., regularly running anti-theft software on all internal PC's -- meaning
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that employees are checked whether they may be running illegally acquired
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software, even loading one copy of Windows onto more than one UnixWare
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box. Yes, we also protect Cousin Bill's property :-)
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Then we had yet another idea thrown in:
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| From: andreas@orion.mgen.uni-heidelberg.de (Andreas Helke)
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| Date: 2 Sep 1994 01:19:31 GMT
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| Organization: University of Heidelberg, Germany
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| Thomas Tonino (ttonino@bio.vu.nl) wrote:
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| : As regarding the making availabele of a 'copy to illegaly copy'
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| : wordperfect for Linux on Sunsite, I might want to call to your
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| : attention that in the past Wordperfect Netherlands approach to
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| : piracy has been something like 'It helps us sell'....
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| : So... maybe it would be a good idea... but it should look less official I think.
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| I think the original idea was a unsuported but free version recompiled to be
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| a linux only binary. This might indeed be a valuable marketing tool for the
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| commercial unix versions.
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Which ellicited this comment from Australia:
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| From: clark@ist.flinders.edu.au (Steven R. Clark)
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| Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 03:34:06 GMT
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| Organization: Flinders University of S.A.
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| In article H02@novell.co.uk, msohnius@novell.co.uk (Martin Sohnius) writes:
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| > Thomas Tonino (ttonino@bio.vu.nl) wrote:
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| > : As regarding the making availabele of a 'copy to illegaly copy'
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| > : wordperfect for Linux on Sunsite, I might want to call to your
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| > : attention that in the past Wordperfect Netherlands approach to
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| > : piracy has been something like 'It helps us sell'....
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| >
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| > : So... maybe it would be a good idea... but it should look less official I think.
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| >
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| > I would have my doubts whether Novell-Wordperfect Inc. still has
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| > this attitude. Why don't you try? (But I would recommend a VERY good
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| > legal insurance policy first.)
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| >
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<my .sig ommitted>
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| They are definately NOT interested in allowing people to pirate their software.
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| They are also not interested in porting WP to Linux either. We have offered to
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| help .. official word is .. don't call us, we'll call you .. and we were willing
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| to pay for it too ...
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| Steven R. Clark
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| President, South Australian Linux Users Group
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Note, BTW, that I am quoted as if I were the source of this "official Word".
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I am not. Note also that the original thing about WordPerfect Netherlands
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was re-quoted, so I felt I had to chip in again:
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| From: msohnius@novell.co.uk (Martin Sohnius)
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| Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 20:44:44 GMT
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| Steven R. Clark (clark@ist.flinders.edu.au) wrote:
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| : In article H02@novell.co.uk, msohnius@novell.co.uk (Martin Sohnius) writes:
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| : > Thomas Tonino (ttonino@bio.vu.nl) wrote:
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| : > : As regarding the making availabele of a 'copy to illegaly copy'
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| : > : wordperfect for Linux on Sunsite, I might want to call to your
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| : > : attention that in the past Wordperfect Netherlands approach to
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| : > : piracy has been something like 'It helps us sell'....
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| : >
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| : > : So... maybe it would be a good idea... but it should look less official I think.
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| : >
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| : > I would have my doubts whether Novell-Wordperfect Inc. still has
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| : > this attitude. Why don't you try? (But I would recommend a VERY good
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| : > legal insurance policy first.)
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| : >
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| : They are definately NOT interested in allowing people to pirate their software.
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| : They are also not interested in porting WP to Linux either. We have offered to
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| : help .. official word is .. don't call us, we'll call you .. and we were willing
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| : to pay for it too ...
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| Over lunch today, I mentioned this thread to the guy who is in charge of
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| software piracy issues for Novell-Wordperfect in Europe. His reaction was
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| "forward the thread to me". (See above, re legal insurance.)
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| BTW, I understand that WP 6 for UnixWare is in beta.
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(a perfectly true story: we had our annual summer party last Friday,
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and I really did speak to the recently appointed software-piracy guy for
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Europe, whom I knew from elsewhere, and I *did* mention this thread, and
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the reported perception of WP NL's attitude, and he *did* reply as I
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quoted.)
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This elicited the reponse from J.J. Paaijmans:
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| From: paai@kub.nl (J.J. Paijmans)
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| Date: 10 Sep 1994 06:39:57 GMT
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| In article <CvvqyK.Dqn@novell.co.uk> msohnius@novell.co.uk (Martin Sohnius) writes:
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| ...
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| >
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| >Over lunch today, I mentioned this thread to the guy who is in charge of
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| >software piracy issues for Novell-Wordperfect in Europe. His reaction was
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| >"forward the thread to me". (See above, re legal insurance.)
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| >
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| >BTW, I understand that WP 6 for UnixWare is in beta.
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| >
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| >--
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| > +--------------------------------------------+
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| >Martin Sohnius | "It doesn't matter whether the cat is |
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| Martin not only accused me implicitly of software-piracy (see this
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| thread a few weeks ago), he now threatens to set his legal bloodhounds
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| on this thread. Obviously it is his right to do so but it effectively
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| portraits the horror that established firms feel when confronted with
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| new developments.
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Like theft?
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| And it is so bloody stupid... Linux offers a new way to boost
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| WP-sales, which is a BIG seller, and all they can do is wave with
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| lawyers and insert fingers in dykes, because it might threaten that
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| Unixware of theirs, that is a SMALL seller and likely will remain so.
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| Guess in which department Martin (or should I say: Mister Sohnius)
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| is working...
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In case you are interested, it's Dr. Sohnius, but Herr Sohnius, or even
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better, Herr Dr. Sohnius will do. And the department is Novell Labs, the
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Certification People.
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| Paai.
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Looks like he still hasn't understood that UnixWare and Wordperfect
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come from the same company, for heaven's sake!
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OK, let's make one thing clear (again): that I came to the conclusion
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that he shouldn't get a review copy was not because he would be likely to
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pass it on in multitudes, but because I think he is not a journalist whose
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opinion about UnixWare or Novell I would like to see in print. Perfectly
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fair, isn't it? He's got, after all, a point to prove, namely that UW "is
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a SMALL seller and likely will remain so".
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It appears I have friends as well as enemies:
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| From: martin@ner.com (Martin L. Smith)
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| Sender: martin@ner.com (Martin L. Smith)
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| Date: Sat, 10 Sep 1994 20:37:02 GMT
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| It's unfortunate that this topic has generated so much heat. I can't
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| claim to know what was in anyone's mind while posting a note but the
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| tenor of the accusations that appear to be flying in this thread is
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| wildly incongruous with the open, helpful, discreet role the
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| Novellistas in this group, and specifically including Martin (with
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| whom I share only an accidental common name, unless of course he was
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| named after me), have played.
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Thanks, and you won't believe it: the afore-mentioned software piracy guy,
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to whom I spoke over lunch on Friday, is called "Martin Smith". :-)
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<Harrison's very supportive contribution omitted, as well as his perfectly
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lovely argument that if ever someone were entitled to a free WP, it should
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be him who's been using and paying for it for ages.>
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However, an important part of Harrison's post is quoted in Mijnheer Paaijmans'
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reply of this morning:
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| From: paai@kub.nl (J.J. Paijmans)
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| Date: 12 Sep 1994 07:33:55 GMT
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| In article <350b6b$nqm@news.cais.com> harrison@cais2.cais.com (Harrison Picot) writes:
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<earlier quotes snipped>
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| >>Martin not only accused me implicitly of software-piracy (see this
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| >>thread a few weeks ago), he now threatens to set his legal bloodhounds
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| >
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| >If my memory serves, Martin suggested that you wouldn't be likely
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| >candidate for a free review copy. He might be implying that you
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| >wouldn't be likely to help sales. You don't need to expand on that
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| >in a bad way, and then blame it on Martin.
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| Well, I took Martin up on that, pointing out my interpretation of
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| his words and adding that I was quite vexed by his words. If he had
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| meant them differently, he would have said so, I guess.
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| >
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| >[snip]
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| >>And it is so bloody stupid... Linux offers a new way to boost
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| >>WP-sales, which is a BIG seller, and all they can do is wave with
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| >
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| >If WP is going to give away software, why not give it to those of
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| >us that paid for the development? Like me, I have bought it, DOS
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| Neither I nor anybody else (as far as I remember) asked for WP to
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| give something away. All we have been doing is to speculate on
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| the merits of free/illegal copies as sales-booster. Martin choose
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| too pursue that line in the direction of waving lawyers around.
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| >things to all people. You don't need to wack UW just because Novell
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| >people don't want to give you their work for free.
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| >
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| See above. And yes, I still think it is in the interest of *any* sound
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| software to generate free copies. If that makes me a target for Martin's
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| legal eagle, well, so be it.
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| Paai.
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Well, it doesn't. There should be no discussion here. Hans believes
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that illegal copies in the long run help sales. I happen to believe
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that he is right. Thinking this, and arguing one's case is no offense
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in any sense. Putting up other people's software for free downloading
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is very doubtful, and indeed then downloading and using it is clearly
|
|
illegal. So much for my layman's legal opinion.
|
|
|
|
.. and just to be on the safe side, I finally include Hans' copy
|
|
right notice, which applies to everything above:
|
|
|
|
| --
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| Copyright Hans Paijmans 1994. Niets hierboven mag geheel of
|
|
| gedeeltelijk worden geciteerd buiten de nieuwsgroep(en) waar het
|
|
| oorspronkelijk is geplaatst. Nothing of the above may be cited
|
|
| outside the newsgroups in which the message originally was posted.
|
|
| ---------------------------
|
|
|
|
and my own .sig (ditto)
|
|
|
|
+--------------------------------------------+
|
|
Martin Sohnius | "It doesn't matter whether the cat is |
|
|
Novell Labs Europe | black or white, as long as it catches |
|
|
Bracknell, England | mice." - Deng Xiaoping |
|
|
+44-1344-724031 +--------------------------------------------+
|
|
(I speak for myself, not for Novell or anyone else.)
|
|
|
|
------------------------------
|
|
|
|
From: Christophe Person
|
|
Subject: Re: DOOM for Linux
|
|
Date: 12 Sep 1994 14:24:40 GMT
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|
|
|
I think comp-os-linux-misc is the perfect place to talk about tehcnical problem
|
|
using Xdoom. At least comp-os-linux-help is fine too.
|
|
|
|
For general DOOM topics, better is to use alt.games.doom. These guys on
|
|
this one could complain if everybody post technical problems with linxxdoom
|
|
and I would understand it.
|
|
|
|
Until there is a comp-os-linux-doom group (useless), I will continue using
|
|
this group.
|
|
|
|
If you don't agree, don't read them...
|
|
|
|
*cp++;
|
|
|
|
"Flames will be immediately redirected to /dev/null"
|
|
|
|
|
|
------------------------------
|
|
|
|
|
|
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
|
|
|
|
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
|
|
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
|
|
|
|
Internet: Linux-Misc-Request@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU
|
|
|
|
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.misc) via:
|
|
|
|
Internet: Linux-Misc@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU
|
|
|
|
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
|
|
nic.funet.fi pub/OS/Linux
|
|
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
|
|
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
|
|
|
|
End of Linux-Misc Digest
|
|
******************************
|