498 lines
21 KiB
Plaintext
498 lines
21 KiB
Plaintext
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu>
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To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu
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Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu
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Date: Thu, 6 Oct 94 12:13:22 EDT
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Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #888
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Linux-Misc Digest #888, Volume #2 Thu, 6 Oct 94 12:13:22 EDT
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Contents:
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Re: Yggdrasil Linux Plug and Play CD ver1.1 ? (Paul Bash)
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Help for NCR 53C810 SCSI disk & Video ATI-68800 chip set (Pradeep Chetal)
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Diamond Stealth 64 PCI drivers (Allen S. Harris)
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Re: xvnews (Hans de Graaff)
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Re: SW Technologies (Jonathan I. Kamens)
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Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux? (J.J. Paijmans)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: bash@tware.com (Paul Bash)
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Subject: Re: Yggdrasil Linux Plug and Play CD ver1.1 ?
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Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 16:48:24 GMT
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In article <jeffpkCx5y9n.Fs6@netcom.com>,
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Jeff Kesselman <jeffpk@netcom.com> wrote:
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>> Funny, Slackware, OS/2 and DOS (all installed on the same disk) don't
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>> see any problems. I have no other option except skipping the disk
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>> partition phase of the install.
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>
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>I'm honestly not sure on this one, but I seem to recalll there being a
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>patch bandied about thats needed for this particular controlelr to run
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>two drives?? (Someone with more experience with Adpatecs feel free to jump
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>in.)
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Linux has no problem with this host adapter. I've been running Slackware on
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it for close to a year now. I've run SVR4, OS/2 and DOS on it for years before
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that. SCSI host adapters _always_ support more than two devices (up to 7 in
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fact, 8 if you count the adapter itself). Its part of the SCSI specification.
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The OS using the adapter, of course, must have support for the additional
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drives offered before they can be used.
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The INT 13 BIOS on the Adaptec provides the basic support DOS needs for the
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first two drives. Beyond that _DOS_ needs additional driver support not
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supplied with the OS. Perhaps that is what you are thinking. I believe, nay
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I'm positive, that this has no bearing on the problem. Linux has all the
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additional support necessary right out of the box (providing you are using
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the SCSI kernel) and Linux has _excellent_ support for the 1542B.
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I suspect that this has more to do with the master boot record or the partition
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table not being to the liking of the fdisk used in Yggdrasil. It is probably
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checking some form of signature in the MBR that doesn't match up to what it
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expects. The OS/2 boot manager is active on this drive and that might be
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confusing things. The OS/2 boot manager, though, is nothing new to Linux
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users. There are notes in various README's that tell how to have Boot
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Manager and LILO co-exist on the same disk. You install boot manager first,
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then you don't allow LILO to take over the MBR during the Linux install.
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This is dirt simple and has worked for a _long_ time.
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The fdisk used in Slackware sees nothing wrong with the disk. Perhaps it is
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different from the one used by Yggdrasil. I can't imagine why but I guess its a
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possibility. The Yggdrasil fdisk is obviously less well tested than
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Slackware's if it is in fact the culprit.
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And no, this is _not_ another example of how Yggdrasil isn't meant for someone
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such as myself. It is just this ideal Yggdrasil audience you talk about
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that would be likely to install it on the same disk with the OS/2
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boot manager... just to try it out while continuing to do their normal work
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on OS/2 (or any other OS on the same disk).
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>
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>By the way, the hoops you have to jump through to 'get rid of that damn
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>cd-rom' are:
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> umount /dev/system_cd
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>And it all goes away.
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>
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Oh, don't start getting smug now, Jeff. We were doing so well and now you
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have to go and make and _effort_ to piss me off. You don't have a clue
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of what you are talking about here, but you continue to act like you do,
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inserting foot into mouth in the process. Sad.
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(yes, I'm being excessively condescending, even an asshole, but Jeff just
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keeps pushing :-)
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First of all, that should be
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umount /system_cd
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You umount a _directory_ and mount a _device_. There is no /dev/system_cd.
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There _is_ a /dev/cdrom0 in Yggdrasil (and its link, /dev/cdrom). This is
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just standard UNIX symantics.
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Ok, now that we've got the command straight, have you actually tried this?
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It doesn't just "all goes away". Jesus, haven't you read this thread yet? More
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than one person has complained about how, when you do a complete
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install from the CD-ROM, you _still_ have symbolic links all over the file
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system that point at directories under /system_cd. You can't just remove the
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CD-ROM without removing all the links that point to it. Those links, most
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likely, have to be replaced by the CD-ROM files they are pointing to else you
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don't have a clean install. You might get away with running without the
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CD-ROM for awhile, but that's like saying you can walk down the middle of
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the freeway at 5pm and not get hit by a car.
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Sure you can... for a randomly short while.
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I ask you again, have you actually tried this? For more than a couple of
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days? While exercising all those neat packages you installed? Since
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you've commented elsewhere that you are quite happily running from the
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CD-ROM without installing everything on your PC, I doubt it.
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Here's an extreme, but highly plausible, illustration of the problem: what
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if I want to access the QRZ Ham Radio CD-ROM but can't because the system
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needs the Yggdrasil CD-ROM mounted to, say, run the C compiler executing
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in the background? Well, I guess I just can't, right? Sounds like a classic
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Catch-22. Sure, I could buy a second CD-ROM drive just for this application,
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but then my $35 "Plug and Play" has become a $335 "Plug and PAY" system.
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Yggdrasil just got a whole lot more expensive.
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This issue of extraneous symbolic links is just one of several that started
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this whole thread long before I got involved. If you don't know this, you did
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more than miss a turn a while back, you've been asleep at the wheel. If you
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don't understand the ramifications of this, yet continue to throw smug
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comments around as if you do, you're just making yourself look silly.
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Like I said, you need to do some homework. Here's your first lesson: get a
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300MB+ disk and, using the control panel, install the full set of software
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from the CD-ROM onto your disk. Now issue the following commands:
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cd /
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umount /system_cd
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find / -type l -ls | grep system_cd
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On my system, I installed the following subset from the control panel
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(after using the command line install to setup usrbin) since I didn't
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have the 300MB to work with:
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UUCP and USENET
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GNU development tools
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GNU C and C++ Compilers
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GNU Emacs
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ghostscript
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Kernel Sources
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Elm and Pine mailers
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Man page sources
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Portable bitmap system
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XF user interface builder
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Other X Windows Programs
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Xview
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I then applied the Fall 94 errata fixes.
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When I issue the above commands, I get quite a list of links that still
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point at the /system_cd directory. After editing that list to remove those
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things that I _think_ are accounted for by those packages I _didn't_ install
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(whose links shouldn't be there, but should be harmless provided I don't
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attempt to run those packages) I have the following links that look
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suspicious:
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/usr/lib/g++-include -> /system_cd/usr/lib/g++-include
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/usr/lib/nslookup.help -> /system_cd/usr/lib/nslookup.help
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/usr/bin/adduser -> /system_cd/usr/bin/adduser
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/usr/bin/man- -> /system_cd/usr/bin/man-
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/usr/X386 -> /system_cd/usr/X386
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/usr/account_template -> /system_cd/usr/account_template
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/usr/g++-include -> /system_cd/usr/g++-include
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/usr/i486-linux -> /system_cd/usr/i486-linux
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/usr/man/host.1 -> /system_cd/usr/man/host.1
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/usr/man/man9 -> /system_cd/usr/man/man9
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/.bash_history -> /system_cd/.bash_history
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/INSTALL -> /system_cd/INSTALL
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/bootflpy.3in -> /system_cd/bootflpy.3in
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/bootflpy.5in -> /system_cd/bootflpy.5in
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/bootflpy.phl -> /system_cd/bootflpy.phl
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/fips11.zip -> /system_cd/fips11.zip
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/manual -> /system_cd/manual
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/ramdisk -> /system_cd/ramdisk
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/readme.txt -> /system_cd/readme.txt
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/rr_moved -> /system_cd/rr_moved
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/setup -> /system_cd/setup
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Out of this list, a few items catch my eye as particularly annoying:
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/usr/lib/g++-include -> /system_cd/usr/lib/g++-include
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/usr/lib/nslookup.help -> /system_cd/usr/lib/nslookup.help
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/usr/bin/adduser -> /system_cd/usr/bin/adduser
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/usr/bin/man- -> /system_cd/usr/bin/man-
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/usr/X386 -> /system_cd/usr/X386
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/usr/account_template -> /system_cd/usr/account_template
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/usr/g++-include -> /system_cd/usr/g++-include
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/usr/i486-linux -> /system_cd/usr/i486-linux
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/usr/man/host.1 -> /system_cd/usr/man/host.1
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/usr/man/man9 -> /system_cd/usr/man/man9
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In particular, look at /usr/lib/g++-include. Try this command
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cd /usr/lib/g++-include
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BINGO! It's not found, is it? That doesn't sound right, Jeff. I requested
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that the C and C++ compilers packages be installed on my hard disk.
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Well, there goes my stable C++ development environment. Is a light coming
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on somewhere, Jeff?
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If the links are there, then you don't have a CD-ROM-less install.
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You have an accident waiting to happen. It doesn't matter if you are a power
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user or a beginner, the situation is just as messy. From his view, random
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programs are going to blow up and the target Yggdrasil user you defined
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earlier isn't going to have a clue as to what is happening.
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Ok, yes, I could just go through and manually fix all of this. That's not the
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point. The point is/was that this is sloppy and poorly executed. Particularly
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when the Yggdrasil manual indicates throughout that you have the option of
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mounting the CD-ROM or not (if you at least install the /usr/bin package).
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With a CD-ROM, you can't afford to miss these details because you don't
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have the option of just patching the distribution when you find a problem.
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Instead, the user just has to deal with it again and again every time she
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installs the system. I've personally been through the 2 page Fall 94 errata
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5 or 6 times (each time I've had to re-install the CD-ROM to try and get a
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clean system). I hope I never see it again. If Yggdrasil intends a CD-ROM-less
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installation option, they have to test it, dammit! It doesn't look like they
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did and that's sloppy. I found these problems in 5 minutes by looking for
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them, why didn't they?
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Slackware doesn't have these kind of problems (although it has had _some_
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problems). It is _much_ more skillfully executed. And, it has been this clean
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for every release I've seen (since 1.1 and it is now at 2.1, I believe). FMPE
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(From My Personal Experience), the great majority of users will find it
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satisfying much longer than they would the Yggdrasil CD-ROM.
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Thus, we come full circle to my original comments that you jumped on several
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posts ago thereby fueling this fire. Yggdrasil is "cute" but it isn't for
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serious use. Jan experienced some of the same problems I did and asked if a
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better Linux CD exists. Without going into 20,000 words (like I've had to with
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you) I told him what I thought. Do you see what I mean now, Jeff? I hope so,
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but I kind of doubt it.
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>>
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>>I wasted $35 on the Yggdrasil Fall 94 CD-ROM that I will never use.
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>
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>I have a feeling that, if you are that unhappy, and you bought it
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>directly from yygdrasil theyw ill probobly refund your money.
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I did not buy this software directly from Yggdrasil. Instead, I bought it from
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an exhibitor at a Hamfest. Third party, cash deal. I don't expect Yggdrasil to
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refund my money on this. If they would, great, but I don't expect it. And, it
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wouldn't change my opinion of Yggdrasil anyway. I have no beef with Yggdrasil
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as a whole, I just said the Fall 94 CD-ROM had major problems. I'm sure they're
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a great group otherwise and I'm sure they'll eventually get it together.
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They obviously have the talent. The execution is what's lacking.
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>>
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>>(If you aren't interested in Jeff and I bitching at each other, please press
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>>"n" now)
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>>
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>>Back to Jeff's comments:
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>>------------------------
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>>
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[stuff deleted]
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>
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>This is kind of childish debate tactics (here comes the return-flame..)
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>Paul, and beneath your otherwise very intellegent comments above.
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You just couldn't resist getting that last little dig in, eh? That's beneath
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you, Jeff ;-)
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--
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Paul Bash Techware Design
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bash@tware.com Boulder, CO U.S.A.
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"The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it" -- John Gilmore
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------------------------------
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Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux
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From: chetal@gedny.ml.com (Pradeep Chetal)
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Subject: Help for NCR 53C810 SCSI disk & Video ATI-68800 chip set
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Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 20:57:06 GMT
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Hi,
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I just installed Linux on a DELL machine with slackware from sunsite.
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I had to pick up a modified ncr roootdisk for SCSII NCR 53C810 disk, which was
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there called ncr.gz and I picked it up and it does WORK!!
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BUT when I create the boot disk from setup, the kernel there is
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NOT capable of NCR SCSI. How can I update the system kernel & boot disk kernel
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to be same as the root disk 'ncr' kernel.
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In addition, I have an ATI 68800-AX chip set with NEX 4FGe. Can anyone
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send the Xconfig file for it. I keep on getting errors about the clock speed.
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Thanks,
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/Pradeep
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--
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--
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Pradeep Chetal Internet: chetal@gedny.ml.com
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--
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--
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Pradeep Chetal Internet: chetal@gedny.ml.com
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------------------------------
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From: asharr@cs.wm.edu (Allen S. Harris)
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Subject: Diamond Stealth 64 PCI drivers
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Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 07:55:32 GMT
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I purchased a new computer a couple of months ago including
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a Diamond Stealth 64 PCI video card. I have since decided
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that linux is a very good thing, and would like to put it
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on my machine. Problem: xfree doesn't support the
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Diamond Stealth 64. I don't blame them, but I would still
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like to run x in extended video modes (1024x768 would be
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nice). Does anyone know what options are available to me?
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ie are there specs available for the Diamond Stealth 64
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so that I might (gulp) write a driver for it. I know that
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Diamond's non-disclosure policy kind of hampers that
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possibility, but I am hoping that there are other people
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out there who would like to/ are running linux with the
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Stealth 64.
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Any help would be _greatly_ appreciated.
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Thanks,
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Scott Harris
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--
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email at: asharr@cs.wm.edu
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------------------------------
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From: graaff@dutiws.twi.tudelft.nl (Hans de Graaff)
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Subject: Re: xvnews
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Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 08:20:45 GMT
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In article <36ubu7$28f@scitsc25.wlv.ac.uk>,
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J.Tench <cm5585@scitsc25.wlv.ac.uk> wrote:
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>Dear all
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> Does any one know where I can get hold of a copy of the source for xvnews.
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ftp.twi.tudelft.nl:/pub/news/xvnews-2.2.1.tar.gz
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ftp.uu.net:/networking/news/readers/xvnews/xvnews-2.2.1.tar.gz
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Hans
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--
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Hans de Graaff J.J.deGraaff@TWI.TUDelft.NL
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Delft University of Technology Department of Information Systems
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=======================================================================
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<a href=http://www.twi.tudelft.nl/People/J.J.deGraaff.html>click me</a>
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------------------------------
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From: jik@cam.ov.com (Jonathan I. Kamens)
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Subject: Re: SW Technologies
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Date: 6 Oct 1994 15:26:04 GMT
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In article <37028n$e0p@hk.super.net>, shciosea@hk.super.net (Mr John Shaller) writes:
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|> Something from Jonathan saying that "...I'll keep reposting the message
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|> until they admit their fault or out of business..." make me feel awkward.
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|> I don't there is such big deal to justify forcing someone until they die
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That is not why I am posting my review periodically. I am posting my review
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periodically because there are constantly new people deciding to buy a system
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and looking for a vendor to use, and those people often only start reading the
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relevant newsgroups when they make the decision to buy, and I want to warn
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them to avoid a vendor which I believe is not competent to sell and support
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the systems they claim to be able to sell and support.
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I no longer believe that I have much of a chance to get back any of the money
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I've asked SWT to refund. I am no longer posting my review to get back money.
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I am posting my review to prevent other people from being damaged as I was by
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SWT.
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|> Personally, I think the requirements from Jonathan is just too much.
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|> Everyone in the Linux world know that Linux is provided "AS IS", you try
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|> it at your own risk.
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A number of people have made this point to me, in postings and in E-mail.
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However, I think the people who make this point are missing the major thrust
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of my complaints about SWT. If the problems I'd had with the machine they'd
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sold me had been only with Linux, I wouldn't be complaining at all. I'm aware
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that Linux is "AS IS" software and that most Linux installations have rough
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edges; in fact, that's one of the reasons I want to run Linux -- to play with
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smoothing those rough edges (and, in fact, in the time I had the machine from
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SWT, I made a number of fixes to the Linux kernel and submitted them to Linus).
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The problems which prompted me to return the machine, and which prompt me to
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believe that SWT is not competent to sell Pentium PCs (I can't speak directly
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to their competence to sell other PCs, but the anecdotal evidence I've seen
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seems to suggest that they're slightly better at 386's and 486's than at
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Pentium machines), were all related to HARDWARE and SERVICE. The hardware I
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got from SWT was faulty when I got it and was faulty when I returned it three
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months later. SWT's attempts to fix the faults were feeble and incompetent.
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The hardware would have been faulty whether I was running Linux, MS-DOS,
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Windows or OS/2.
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I mention in my review problems with the software that SWT installed only to
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make the point that they were part of a larger series of problems. In and of
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themselves, they would not have prompted me to return the machine.
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|> I can see
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|> that Marvin has been trying hard to help by shipping replacements and
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|> suggesting importments... Nothing in the world is perfect...
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Marvin tried, but he tried in an incompetent manner. As I believe I said in
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my review, the fact that SWT tried hard to fix serious problems with the
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machine does not change the fact that the machine should not have had those
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problems when it was shipped to me.
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Would you consider it acceptable if you bought a new car and spent three
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months driving back to the dealership almost daily to get things fixed? There
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are new cars which don't cost much more than I paid for the computer from SWT,
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so I believe the analogy is completely reasonable.
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|> A final word, Jonathan, PLEASE DON"T periodically reposting your LONG
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|> statement ( and the finely tunned correction/amandment... are we in the
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|> California court?). Just try to think there are how many news server
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|> around the world and your REPEATED posting may consume a few GB of disk
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|> space :-)....
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I've already explained above why I repost my review. If you don't want to see
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it, then put its Subject line in your KILL file. Somehow, I don't think that
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my posting of a 26Kb article to a few newsgroups every three months is going
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to swamp the net. I'll leave to the reader the proof that the resources taken
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up by such posting are negligible (read "in the noise").
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--
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Jonathan Kamens | OpenVision Technologies, Inc. | jik@cam.ov.com
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------------------------------
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From: paai@kub.nl (J.J. Paijmans)
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Crossposted-To: comp.unix.questions
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Subject: Re: Word (Text) processors for Linux?
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Date: 6 Oct 1994 09:06:56 GMT
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In article <1994Oct5.174859.18757@midway.uchicago.edu> goer@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
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...
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>
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>Those are all ISO 8859-1 languages. You can get those without even
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>trying. I'm talking about things like Japanese, Arabic, Greek, and
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>so on. While multilingual in one sense, apps that do the languages
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>you're talking about are basically just using a single (Latin) script.
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>
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>Guys, the race is on to capture growing markets in China, India, and
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>perhaps Russia and Islamic countries, and Unix is way behind the Mac
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>(WorldScript) and NT (Unicode); probably behind NeXTStep, too, though
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>I don't know what they've been doing lately....
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>
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Richard: I don't understand. OK, you can get Hebrew or Arabic under
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Windows (I even saw a wordprocessor for old-egyptian hieroglyphs
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demonstrated), but surely they are just translations of graphics for
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existing characters? You can't even write hebrew in the right
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direction (i.e. from right to left) when you select the font. If you
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want to do that, you have to start from scratch and break out that
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assembly language manual; or at least the toolbox with graphic
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functions and there is not much in MS-Windows that you can use right
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away. The hieroglyphic wordprocessor was done this way.
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So if the waiting just is for somebody to draw a new font, I see no
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intrinsic superiority of MS-Windows (or MacIntosh) over Unix. And if
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you want to mess with the basic left-right orientation, the situation
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in X Windows is not worse than in MS-Windows.
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But I am not an expert in this sort of things, so please enlighten me.
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Paai.
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