546 lines
23 KiB
Plaintext
546 lines
23 KiB
Plaintext
From: Digestifier <Linux-Development-Request@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu>
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To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu
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Reply-To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu
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Date: Sat, 3 Sep 94 03:13:10 EDT
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Subject: Linux-Development Digest #109
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Linux-Development Digest #109, Volume #2 Sat, 3 Sep 94 03:13:10 EDT
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Contents:
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Re: Linux - my first impressions (Warner Losh)
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Re: Linux for DEC Alpha platform? (Donald Becker)
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Installation, Support, Testing [Was: Future of Linux] (Dan Connolly)
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Re: Linux Inside T-Shirts, Now Printing! (pana@phoenix.phoenix.net)
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Re: What on earth is happening to the stabilit (Steve DuChene)
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Re: Does really Linux uses RAM efficiently? Undelete ability? (John Saunders)
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Re: Does really Linux uses RAM efficiently? Undelete ability? (John Saunders)
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Re: Acid (was: Simple ac (Lau)
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Re: Future of linux -- t (Lau)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: imp@boulder.parcplace.com (Warner Losh)
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Subject: Re: Linux - my first impressions
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Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 22:25:44 GMT
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In article <345inv$mo6@bmerha64.bnr.ca> Hamish.Macdonald@bnr.ca (Hamish Macdonald) writes:
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>Rather than containing code to read partition tables and Linux
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>partitions, lilo figures out which disk blocks the kernel file is on,
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>and puts the block number data in a place it can find on bootup.
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The lilo way of doing it is a hack. The boot code should know enough
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to know where to find the kernel by name, and not by a list of blocks
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that may change in the future. That is LILO's big shortcoming. Heck,
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FreeBSD and NetBSD grok file systems in their boot code and it is nice
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to have that. Lilo does work, until that one time you upgrade your
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kernel and forget to run lilo....
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The EEPROMS on Solbourne machines can read the boot blocks and the
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file system. The EEPROMs on Sun machines, at least older ones, need
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to be told where the bootblocks are. The Sun's bootblocks understand
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the file system.
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Warner
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--
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Warner Losh imp@boulder.parcplace.COM ParcPlace Boulder
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"... but I can't promote you to "Prima Donna" unless you demonstrate a few
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more serious personality disorders"
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------------------------------
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From: becker@cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov (Donald Becker)
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Subject: Re: Linux for DEC Alpha platform?
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Date: 3 Sep 1994 00:05:31 -0400
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In article <33u1fh$9ej@bmerha64.bnr.ca>,
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Hamish Macdonald <Hamish.Macdonald@bnr.ca> wrote:
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>>>>>> On 29 Aug 1994 08:14:02 EST,
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>>>>>> In message <33smuq$mkq@scotty.waldorf-gmbh.de>,
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>>>>>> ralf@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de (Ralf Baechle) wrote:
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>
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>Ralf> Expect Linux to be available for all major CPU families in the
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>Ralf> near future.
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>
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>Ralf, you and I both know that the big work in a Linux port is not so
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>much the CPU specific stuff, but the device drivers.
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>
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>As such, only expect Linux to work on PC clones (powered by various
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>ALPHA, x86, MIPS chips) in the *near* future.
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Both the PowerPC/PREP and the Alpha are promoted as using the PCI bus.
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Picking the three major devices I consider necessary for a system: disk,
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network, and video controllers, I see that x86 Linux is close to supporting
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PCI bus versions of all three. I'm only intimately familiar with network
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device driver, but I don't think it would take very long to convert it to a
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different processor once I know I knew a few details, such as the I/O space
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mapping. Perhaps most of the changes will be just converting the ASM
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in*()/out*() functions to memory operations, and checking for byte-sex
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problems.
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The remaining essential device drivers to be written are for the
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keyboard/mouse port, PCI bus bridge/controller, and perhaps a PCMCIA bus
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bridge. None are trivial, but getting close to having something working is
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highly motivating...
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--
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Donald Becker becker@cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov
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USRA-CESDIS, Center of Excellence in Space Data and Information Sciences.
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Code 930.5, Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, MD. 20771
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301-286-0882 http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/pub/people/becker/whoiam.html
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------------------------------
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From: connolly@hal.com (Dan Connolly)
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Subject: Installation, Support, Testing [Was: Future of Linux]
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Date: 02 Sep 1994 16:17:39 GMT
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There has been a lot of talk about word processors, spreadsheets,
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and such.
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I am curious to know what the state of the art in installation,
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support and testing techniques is.
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The stone age:
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grab the 15 parts of the shar file from comp.sources.*,
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splice them together with a text editor, unshar them,
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edit the Makefile, fix the direct/dirent and other
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BSD/sysVisms, do "make install," add something to
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everybody's $PATH, edit a few ~/.foo files, and you'r
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all set. If you have root privilege, install it
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in /usr/local/*
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Upgrading: download the patch, apply it, rebuild, make
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intall again; hope that there are no obsolete files
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lying around in places.
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Support: Read the FAQ, troll the archives,
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mail the developers, post to USENET.
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A little evolution:
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surf for a while with xarchie, xgopher, Mosaic, etc., find
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the .tar.gz file, download it, and unpack it.
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Run ./config or imake, and if you're using a sun4 or a few
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other supported platforms, you're in luck. make install,
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change $PATH, edit ~/.foo, and you're done.
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Binary distributions:
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Surf as above. Locate binary distribution for your machine,
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with the right combination of compile-time switches for
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debugging, security, SOCKS, term, etc. Hope it's got a PGP
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signature from somebody you know.
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Install in /usr/local, send mail to your local consituency
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telling them about the new app and where the documentation
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lives.
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Support: FAQ, email, USENET, plus perhaps evolving online
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documentation via WWW.
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Consumer Technology:
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Pay money.
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Open the package. Stick the "Install" disk in the floppy
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drive. Double-click the icon that shows up on the desktop.
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Double-click the README file if you're curious, or just
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double-click the "INSTALL" icon. Choose an installation
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destination. Follow the instructions
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about inserting other diskettes. Double-click the app icon.
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Open the "preferences" dialog. Save your configuration. Done.
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Support: call long distance, call 1-800, FAX, BBS, Compu$erve.
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(I've never seen _any_ UNIX platform with software installation
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that I'd call "consumer technology". But then I haven't dealt
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with SVR4 packages much. AIX's strategy is well-intentioned,
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but in practice, it's a nightmare. Perhaps it will mature.)
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What I'd like to see:
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Identify the programs/products/projects that might do the
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job. (Using archie, WWW, USENET news, mail, etc.)
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Locate the relavent "lsm" entries (or whatever. Perhaps
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it's the holy-grail URC that the URI WG is discussing...)
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Choose between:
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full development source
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full documentation source (TeX, TeXinfo, SGML, nroff, ...)
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pre-built documentation (ASCII, postscript, gnu info)
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binaries for platform x/y/z, compile-time options a/b/c
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contributed options
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Submit the completed form (via e-mail or via HTTP POST with,
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for example, Mosaic or super-FTP).
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The compressed archives come back (via email (using MIME
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base64 encoding and message/partial, with automatic reassembly),
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or via HTTP or some super-FTP server).
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(The above form transaction could happen locally if the
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archives are distributed on CD-ROM, for example)
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For binaries, you can install them on a :
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per-user basis, in ~/...
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per-group basis, in /some/dir/shared/by/the/group
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per-host basis, in /usr/local (or /opt, or ...)
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per-site basis, in /some/nfs/exported/dir
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or /some/afs/exported/dir
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Also, you can install it on a per-user basis, test it out,
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and then promote it to a per-group, per-host, or per-site
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installation without a lot of pain.
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The applications should support online hypertext help,
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(how do we integrate this with man/whatis?)
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with some FAQ, and a pointer to the home of the up-to-date FAQ,
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and an automated problem reporting facility that searches
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out the relavent configuration information, recent errors,
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etc., and allows the user to edit a description. The problem
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gets mailed to the relavent developers and/or mailing lists.
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An associated gnats-style database is available for browsing.
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A regression test suite would allow binary distribution customers
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to test their installations. And it would allow developers
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who port to other platforms to check their work. (And folks
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who provide patches...). Even a minimal "sanity check" test suite
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would provide a lot of warm fuzzies. And eventually, the
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test suite would grow...
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So I'm curious:
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Is there a regression suite that the Linux developers will
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use to qualify the 1.2 release? How do we know that new
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developments haven't re-introduced old bugs? Or do we believe
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it's more cost-effective to just release it and fix the
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remaining problems in 1.2.x patch releases? (a distinct
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possibility)
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As the number of combinations and permutations of kernel configuration
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options, hardware configurations, and (soon) processor options
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increases, I believe it will become cost-effective to
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maintain regression test suites. (Yes, I'm willing to do my
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part... eventually. No time to contribute just now.)
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Are the various companies offering tech-support for Linux
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maintaing problem reporting databases? Any chance these
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databases can be shared between companies? Shared with
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the community? Do they use gnats?
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Does anybody know how software installation works in the
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proposed COSE standard? I'm encouraged by the evolution of
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support for iBCS and ELF binaries. Linux has benefitted greatly
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from the fact that gnu software adheres to and supports the
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POSIX standards. I think that -- in many cases -- support
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of existing standards and practices will grow the Linux
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applications base and hence the customer base and hence
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the developer base and ...
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Dan
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--
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Daniel W. Connolly "We believe in the interconnectedness of all things"
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Software Engineer, Hal Software Systems, OLIAS project (512) 834-9962 x5010
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<connolly@hal.com> http://www.hal.com/%7Econnolly/index.html
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------------------------------
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From: pana@phoenix.phoenix.net
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Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.help,comp.os.linux.admin,aus.computers.linux,alt.os.linux,alt.linux.sux
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Subject: Re: Linux Inside T-Shirts, Now Printing!
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Date: Sat, 03 Sep 94 00:29:19 PDT
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In article <348pgt$if@Venus.mcs.com>, <daver@MCS.COM> writes:
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> Path:
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dolphin.phoenix.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!dds
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w1!not-for-mail
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> From: daver@MCS.COM (Dave Rossow)
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> Newsgroups:
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aus.computers.linux,alt.linux.sux,alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.admin
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,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.help,comp.os.linux.misc
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> Subject: Re: Linux Inside T-Shirts, Now Printing!
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> Date: 2 Sep 1994 22:11:25 -0500
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> Organization: MCSNet Services
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> Lines: 15
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> Message-ID: <348pgt$if@Venus.mcs.com>
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> References: <33q3co$q0l@garion.it.com.au> <CvAy09.BB3@dfw.net>
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> NNTP-Posting-Host: venus.mcs.com
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> Xref: dolphin.phoenix.net aus.computers.linux:1320
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alt.os.linux:208 comp.os.linux.admin:14185
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comp.os.linux.development:15558 comp.os.linux.help:55264
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comp.os.linux.misc:25362
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>
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> jhs@dfw.net (Justin Scott) writes:
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>
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>
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> >Any type of JPEGs, etc we can see of the shirts before we
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order?
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>
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> >I would love to have the "Linux Inside" as will as the "GNU
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Generation"
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> >shirts, but only if I can see pics before purchase
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>
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> >Justin
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>
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> Likewise!
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>
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> dave
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> daver@mcs.com
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>
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Yep same here.
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Chuck
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------------------------------
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From: s0017210@cc.ysu.edu (Steve DuChene)
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Subject: Re: What on earth is happening to the stabilit
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Date: 1 Sep 1994 09:35:08 GMT
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Apparently there are some problems with floppy formatting/e2fsck
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on certain kinds of floppy drives (those that report as the following
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at bootup: FDC 0 is a post-1991 82077) causing some corruption in
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data written to a floppy when running with some new kernels (1.1.4*).
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If you don't have a floppy drive that has this characteristic you won't
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see any of these problems. "So lets be careful out there"
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--
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| Steven A. DuChene sduchene@cis.ysu.edu or s0017210@cc.ysu.edu
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| Youngstown State University | Computer Science / Math / Mech. Eng.
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|They all laughed at Albert Einstein. They all laughed at Columbus.
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|Unfortunately, they also all laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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------------------------------
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From: john@odin.apana.org.au (John Saunders)
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Subject: Re: Does really Linux uses RAM efficiently? Undelete ability?
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Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 13:51:53 GMT
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Anthony J. Stuckey (stuckey@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
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> You can. Or you can make a file system that takes a useful strategy
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> towards block re-use. It's not hard to place newly-freed blocks at the
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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> *END* of the free-list, for instance. It's my understanding, though, that
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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> strategies like this lead to fragmentation and performance loss.
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How would this work with bit maps? With a bitmap filesystem design, any
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concept of order is lost. Once a block is freed it becomes part of the
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pool. With a list design you can put recently freed blocks at the end of
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the free list.
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However adding a list to what is already a bitmap filesystem would make
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the overhead, both space and time, too large (at least for me).
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I think that any filesystem that supports undelete must be designed
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with this facility from the start. A simple patch to the current ext2
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filesystem is asking for problems.
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--
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-- . +----------------------------------------------+
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,-._|\ | John SAUNDERS - Home john@odin.apana.org.au |
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/ OZ \ | - Work johns@rd.scitec.com.au |
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\_.-\__/ | "Mmmmmmmm beer..." - Homer Simpson |
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v +----------------------------------------------+
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------------------------------
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From: john@odin.apana.org.au (John Saunders)
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Subject: Re: Does really Linux uses RAM efficiently? Undelete ability?
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Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 14:00:14 GMT
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Anthony W. Kay (tkay@crl.com) wrote:
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> Undelete is a feature you can build on by replacing the rm command with
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> a program that moves the file to some sort of "trashcan (a directory
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> like /tmp)". Then write a program (call it unrm if you wish), that
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> searches the "trashcan", and moves the file(s) back. Remember to add
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> a program to your crontab that "times out" these files and actually
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> removes them. (you might also add a rmtrash command).
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One idea would be to have a "disk space" daemon that periodically checks
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the disk free space. When it finds resources becoming low it starts
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deleting the the oldest "deleted file". If you wan't to get fancy you
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could have the file system sending messages to the daemon for example,
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"out of space" or "running low", etc. This would mean the daemon wouldn't
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use resources by polling the free space. The daemon could also remove
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files after a certain time period. The options are limitless.
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The point is with Linux (or Unix) there are lots of ways to to things.
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Sometimes adding bloat to the kernel isn't the best way.
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Just think, if we need undelete added to every filesystem type we could
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be booting 1 Meg kernels before long, like some of the other Unix's.
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--
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-- . +----------------------------------------------+
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,-._|\ | John SAUNDERS - Home john@odin.apana.org.au |
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/ OZ \ | - Work johns@rd.scitec.com.au |
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\_.-\__/ | "Mmmmmmmm beer..." - Homer Simpson |
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v +----------------------------------------------+
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------------------------------
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From: gabe@io.org (Lau)
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Subject: Re: Acid (was: Simple ac
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Date: 3 Sep 1994 00:19:30 -0400
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To: goer@quads.uchicago.edu
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On 09/02/94, Was: wrote:
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>Subject: Re: Acid (was: Simple acid test)
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>
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>>>> A simple test of true multilinguality is this: Can you mix languages
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>>>> inside the application in question - languages with drastically different
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>>>> scripts. And can you do it in arbitrary spots...
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>>>
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>>>MULE does this. Do your DOS applications support this *and* multiple
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>>>input methods?
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>>>
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>>I must point out that those awful glorified terminal Macintoshes have
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>>multiple language support built into the operating system.
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>
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>Right. So you don't need to graft on all of these ridiculous hacks to
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>get nice multilingual software like Nisus. I'm constantly frustrated
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>by Unix developers who tell me their product is fully internationalized,
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>only to find that it's, at best, hacked for a language here or there.
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>They nearly always fail my simple acid test, namely let me quote Shakes-
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>peare and the Quran in the same paragraph or message. Typically what
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>they mean when they say "internationalized" is "capable of being local-
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>ized to support a language other than English."
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Yes, MULE and other XTerms will do this...not sure about Arabic but
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Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Cyrillic is supported. Meaning you can have
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multiple languages all in the same sentence (assuming the codes don't
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clash, see below).
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>
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>Being an American, I realize that it's hard for us to understand a
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>multilingual environment like India, Canada, much of Russia, etc.; or
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>a culture like Iran or Turkey, where Arabic has a certain standing as
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>a religious language, though the populace speaks a non-Semitic vernacu-
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>lar. What I don't understand is why foreign markets are putting up
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>with the whole mess by permitting single-language localizations. If
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>everyone just said, "Give me a fully internationalized OS that sup-
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>ports wide characters and has a script manager built into the GUI,"
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>then, well, a lot of goons would be out of work. But we'd be that
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>much closer to Nirvana.
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You are completely missing out on what makes a internationalize OS so
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hard to make. There are already hundreds of standard formats for different
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languages, Chinese alone has at least dozen different coding schemes and
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50 different methods of input...in other words, its not that easy to
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determine what coding to use, since most of them clash. The same sequence
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of bytes used to represent one word/character in one language will mean
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something totally different in another...how can you tell.
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>
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>Incidentally, what is this Mule? Is this a truly internationalized
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>product, or a hack to get the OS to work with some specific non-western
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>language like Japanese?
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While MULE was principly developed in Japan, it can handle various
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coding schemes for different languages assuming they can coexist.
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Again, "truly internationalized" is something that will take a while in
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any OS. Can you think of ANY OS or app that will allow you to write from
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left to right(English & most European languages), right to left(Hebrew) AND
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top to bottom from the left to right (Chinese), all in the same document?
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Kin Lau (gabe@io.org)
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---
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* UniQWK v3.0 * The Windows Mail Reader
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------------------------------
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From: gabe@io.org (Lau)
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Subject: Re: Future of linux -- t
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Date: 3 Sep 1994 00:19:36 -0400
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To: pyeatt@cervesa.cs.colostate.edu
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On 09/02/94, Larry wrote:
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>In article <346dki$g5d@news.u.washington.edu>,
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mike@wavelet.apl.washington.edu (Mike Kenney) writes:
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>|> In article <3456g5$1ekr@yuma.acns.colostate.edu>,
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>|> Larry Pyeatt <pyeatt@CS.ColoState.EDU> wrote:
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>|> >
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>|> >Compare the price/performance of processors and Intel comes out to
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>|> >make the worst processors in existence. PowerPC chips provide twice
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>|>
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>|> I have to disagree here. The price/performance of a Pentium PC is
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>|> quite good (especially if you're running Linux :-).
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>
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>You are talking at the system level. I was talking at the processor level.
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>What makes Pentium SYSTEMS cost effective is:
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>1) volume and vendor independence
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>2) Pentium systems in general:
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>a) have lower resolution/slower video hardware
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>b) have smaller hard disks
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>c) have less RAM
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If you're running RISC, you NEED more RAM and STORAGE simply because
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the same C code when compiled is going to be 30% large on the RISC than on
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the Pentium.
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>
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>Do not confuse processor with system. The Power Macintosh
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>uses a totally new and different processor from any of its
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>predecessors and yet runs the SAME software and OS, and
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>delivers much greater price/performance. The same can be
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>done with the IBM style PC, although vendor independence
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>may turn out to be a hindrance.
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No, the Power Mac is not any faster w/ the SAME software & OS. It's
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slower until native PPC apps available.
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>
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>Configure a Pentium system which is identical to an SGI
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>Indy and they will have very similar price/performance,
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>even though the Pentium PROCESSOR is more expensive
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>than the MIPS processor.
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>
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>Here is a Pentium Machine which is configured similar to a
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>$6500 Indy:
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>
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>99MhZ Pentium PCI bus motherboard $2500 ??? $1500CDN ($1000US)
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>32Meg RAM $1000 OK
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>#9 GXE Level 12 video card $ 500 OK
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>ViewSonic 17 Monitor $1000 what? $1000CDN ($700US)
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>Keyboard, 1.44M floppy, mouse, serial $ 300 These three look more like
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>400Meg SCSI disk $ 350 Canadian prices (40% exchange)
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>BusLogic SCSI controller $ 350 Crazy, the PCI NCR is only $100
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>Soundblaster $ 100 ok
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>Case and Power Supply $ 100 ok
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>Ethernet adaptor $ 200 Huh? Less than $100-
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>CCD camera $ ???
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>Operating system $ ???
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> -----
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> $6400 minumum <- wildly overestimated
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>
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>Note that, at the price shown, the PC will not do full motion video or
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>capture images, nor will it be as fast overall as the SGI.
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Time to check back w/ your suppliers.
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Kin Lau (gabe@io.org)
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---
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* UniQWK v3.0 * The Windows Mail Reader
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******************************
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